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Thread: Nu Build. Nu Problems!

  1. #1
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    Unhappy Nu Build. Nu Problems!

    Hello!
    Seven years ago I built my first computer using then...MSI P-35 Platinum Mobo,DDR2, Q6600, Thermaltake 700w PSU. Last week it was time to upgrade, using a MSI B85-G41 Mobo, GeForce 8600GT, DDR3 (16GB 1600) i7 4770 3.4GHz, Seasonic S12G 550W PSU, EVGA GTX-750 (1Gb) Photoshop CS5 extended, and video editing with Pinnacle Studio 15 HD Ultimate. I know I will need a 22"-24" IPS LED HD monitor, and. GTX-770 with 4GB but they are too expensive.
    I haven't tested anything out of the box before, but when I get my replacement Mobo, I will start Out The Box method this time.
    ...So, After repeatedly testing ONLY these installed components,
    (JFP1 pinheads, 24 ATX 24 power, 4+4 CPU power, and one stick of ram) by jumping the two top right pins for the POWER SWITCH, neg / pos, No power!

    Then I removed the Mobo from the case, and tried the same thing OUTSIDE the case, on a non-conductive surface, and again...NADA.

    So I'm getting this board RMA'D from Newegg.
    Most have said this Mobo is a budget board, will I be sorry? But I don't game or overclock, so it may be fine for my needs.

    This could be a coinkydink, or maybe the reason the Mobo stopped working all together, but like I said previously in one of my posts, when the CPU fan spun then abruptly stopped, this time I then unplugged the 3.0 plug that goes into the 3.0. Header just below the ATX header, (for my 3rd party multi- port 3.0/2.0 Bay slot, since this old case doesn't have 3.0 in the front.
    *Once removed, the fans fired right up and stayed on until I shut it off.

    I turned it on again, but no power at all, and that's when I started jumping pins in and out of the case. Could something like that short anything?
    Anyway, when I get the new board, this time I'm going to add piece then check, until hopefully, it will all work together.

    Did I miss anything?
    Thanks!
    Last edited by Rivrbyte; 03-15-2014 at 02:36 AM.

  2. #2
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    I am always trying to be really cautious when working with Mobos, and have always worn an anti-static wrist band, and constantly discharging inside metal case by touching every chance I get.
    I don't own an anti-static pad, while I install the CPU, the cooler, I place the board on the Mobo cardboard box it came in, never on top of the anti-static bag.
    I also live in Southern California, a mild climate. We have Santa Ana winds that blow through here occasionally, and with all the extra static that these winds generate, I don't do any of this work outside, or inside.
    I just think I got a bad Mobo, given the careful practice of not introducing static anywhere on my work space.

  3. #3
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    This is a difficult answer to your post, meaning it has a lot of 'arms and legs' to the answer.

    Use of the cardboard provides a 100% insulator (meaning the cardboard) from ground. From a static charge viewpoint, this is exactly the opposite of what you want. If you leave the wiring from the cabinet to the motherboard intact, but the motherboard is still outside the cabinet sitting on cardboard, this is exactly what you do not want. Your mobo inside the case is grounded at least at one mobo point or perhaps many mobo points, ie. all the mounting posts that contact a mobo circuit trace may be potentially a ground point -- no way to know easily unless you ask the manufacturer. With the motherboard mounted inside the case (as in a finished and operating build), there is 'an impedance from the motherboard to ground' which you probably cannot duplicate with the mobo outside the case and sitting on cardboard.

    With the motherboard sitting on cardboard and if you wear a grounding wrist strap, you may have some protection. If you do not have a wrist strap on, and, accidentally touch a mobo component with the mobo sitting on the cardboard, you can deliver in a microsecond, enough static discharge in the 'thousands of volts' to damage a component(s). It is also possible to be wearing the wrist strap and damage the mobo while on cardboard via an electrostatic discharge -- the wrist strap is much better than 'nothing', ie no wrist strap is sure disaster; but a wrist strap is not a 100% panacea (100 % protection).

    It is probably possible to get a mobo manufacturer to give you a outline of exactly how to run the mobo live and outside the cabinet, but it would have to be a 100 % accurate setup with an exact procedure from the manufacturer that 100 % mimics the manufacturer's procedure for testing the mobo outside the cabinet; such a procedure would include anti static protection measures required for the entire process beginning with removal of the mobo from the cabinet, then the process outside the cabinet and, last, the procedure to reinstall the mobo in the cabinet. Process means all measures for the removal and protection of the mobo during the removal of the mobo from the cabinet, and all measures for 100% failsafe mobo protection outside the cabinet including removal and reinstallation.

    It takes only a microsecond or a fraction of a microsecond to deliver a multi thousand volt static discharge to a circuit board such as a computer motherboard. It is for this reason that a person doing diagnostic or repair work is specifically trained in how to deal with 'live' motherboard repair and diagnosis' -- generally, a trained electronic technician with up to date specific computer school training.

  4. #4
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    Thank you, zburns for all that info.
    I will contact MSI about testing procedure outside the case, and if I don't get anywhere with that, then I'll just have to install CPU, and heat sink, AND then install the Mobo in the case, and hook up ONLY the ATX 24/ and 4+4 CPU Pwr, to test, if fan remains on, then I'll start adding components, one by one until I'm done.
    If I got one of dem Statico pads, would that be ok to test outside the box?

    This $700.00 build has already exceeded $1100.00, and I still was going to use my old CoolerMaster690 ATX case, BUT maybe that is also over-dated, and the 4 pin Pwr plugs, and the JFP1 Pwr switch,etc., is old and won't b stable enough to last another 5-7 years.

    Maybe another mATX case with 3.0 USB is in order, because like I previously said, at first the Mobo inside the case, with only 24/4+4 power, JFP1, and the big 3.0 Mobo pwr plug (right below the ATX 24 header) for the third party Raidmax mult-port 2X2.0 & 2X3.0 USB bay adaptor, BUT when I disconnected this big USB header, and hit the power, then the fan started right up and stated on.
    But after I turned off power, and on again, there was nada.

    So then I started thinking it was that USB device that caused a problem. (Besides testing on cardboard outside didn't help) So I'm I'm thinking I should get another chassis, because it would be new case pinheads, case Pwr button,new Case Molex connectors, and cable routing.

    Thanks for all the time posting that information. :-)

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the reply.

    OK, I am lazy, but please spell out for me in 1-2-3-etc. order exactly the reason you need to test outside the cabinet. What components are you reusing and what components are brand new?

    When I wrote about the static pad, my comments were not intended to imply you could use the Statico Pad under a 'live' motherboard. I use the Statico pad whenever I take my motherboard out of the case (unwired before unmounting it - mobo - from the case). If you want to take the mobo out of the case, keep it live (wired), and try to leave it hooked to the computer for test purposes, then I would - probably - want to use a 'static pad with a higher impedance - before I would advise you on doing anything out of the case, I would have to call the mobo mfg, and ask what level of impedance the pad should have for the mobo to be live on the pad.

    I have never used my Statico Pad live, just with a plain unwired mobo sitting on it outside the case -- purpose being to eliminate static as a problem.

    Your post above implies or may imply 'a live mobo outside the case' -- you need advice from the mobo mfg before you do that. If I am to comment one way or the other, I, likewise would call the mobo mfg first and clear up 'exactly' how I allow the mobo to be live outside the case. I would also ask the mfg how often do they find it necessary to test the mobo outside the case.
    --------------
    Sometime in the next several hours I will reread your beginning posts and get a better feel for exactly what you are doing and why? I should post back to you by about six pm your time, 9pm my time (assumes 3 hour time diff).
    Last edited by zburns; 03-16-2014 at 05:06 PM.

  6. #6
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    The way I hooked up my last build 7 years ago, was to install everything first, CPU, Heatsink,Mobo,PSU,GPU ( board did not have integrated graphics) and one stick of ram. Then, it fired right up.
    This time, I hooked same (listed) NEW components, (including that 3.0 Raidmax USB header) then tried power, but fan spun a half of second. I did this for the next five times. Then I disconnected the Raidmax bay adapter, then it fired up and stayed on.

    Then for some reason, I turned power on again, then nothing!
    That's the time I removed from the case, and tried it, again nothing.

    Old components-
    CoolerMaster mATX and JFP1 pinheads

    (New) components I installed when I built this-

    Seasonic S12G 550W PSU
    Raidmax 3.0 bay adapter
    One stick of Crucial DDR3 8GB 1600 Balistix
    MSI B85-G41 PC Mate 1150 Mobo
    Intel Stock Heatsink that came with i7 4770 3.4Ghz
    JFP1

    (I could not, for the life of me, figure out how to install the CM Hyper 212 EVO Heatsink) back plate was easy, the cross bar clamp down was not very easy, the pin kept causing the fan base to not be flush with the bridge on heat sink)

    I heard that if Mobo does not work on the inside, then test it on the outside.
    I'm always wearing that anti-static wrist band all the time.

    I'll install everything as I listed above ( except that 3.0 Raidmax...could they cause problems? I had all supplied cables plugged in for that device.) and hopefully, it will fire up.

    Thanks again!
    Last edited by Rivrbyte; 03-16-2014 at 05:33 PM.

  7. #7
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    It B me again,
    I asked my neighbor who is a computer network guy if he had a static pad, and told him what I going through, and sent me this,
    Jim, it is important to put the Motherboard in the case to properly ground
    it, I never use a static pad/bag or arm clip, why? All you have to do is
    make sure your motherboard is grounded to the chassis which happens when you
    screw it in, at least one of the platforms that the board sits on should be
    a screw made of metal to ground the ground of the MB to the chassis. If
    this is done properly ever time and you want to touch the MB just discharge any static."

    Does he mean that one of the brass looking standouts (he said platforms) is from a different alloy? I never remember seeing any other color /material in a standout.

  8. #8
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    The very long post has been split into two posts: This post on grounding of the motherboard; the Post that follows is on 'How to use the Statico Conductive High Density Foam Pad'.
    ------------------
    The following Safety Comment and the Warning comment are for individuals not used to working around electricity
    IMPORTANT SAFETY COMMENT: Never work on a desktop computer with a power cord plugged into a live 110 volt socket. Electrocution or very dangerous shock is possible if you do so. Suggest that before the desktop computer cabinet is ever
    opened, remove the external power cord to the desktop computer and place it inside a drawer somewhere in the house; not being able to immediately access the power cord is simply a further check in protecting the user from making a mistake.

    WARNING: If the computer is powered up never stick your hand inside the case, particularly if you, the owner/operator is a novice around electricity. REMEMBER: If you, the owner, wishes to work on the computer, remove the power cord from the area -- best to put it in a drawer some distance away. Hiding the power cord forces one to hopefully double check themselves before sticking a hand(s) inside a live computer cabinet.

    -------------------
    The motherboard has 'x' number of mounting holes. Each of these mounting holes has space on the back side of the mobo to allow a metal standoff, preferably brass. This standoff stands between the metal case and supports the mobo a certain distance off the case; all standoffs are the same length so as to assure there is no 'warp' to the mobo when fully mounted via the standoffs. Since there are multiple standoffs for the mobo (I just counted apx 10 mounting holes on my Asus mobo - 2008 vintage I think), it stands to reason that all the standoffs impinge on the mobo backside on a 'circuit trace' that is 100 % a ground trace and is common to all the standoffs. Mobo must be properly installed via the standoffs, all mounting holes used, all standoffs used whenever power is applied to the mobo -- this has to do with both 'capacitance' and grounding -- it is just smart to make sure all mounting holes are used before applying any power.

    If follows that it would be possible to place the mobo outside the cabinet, but mounted to a metal plate with all the standoffs, this arrangement would simulate the board being mounted inside the cabinet and would allow for testing outside the cabinet. I have never tried this but I think it would work. Before doing it I would call Asus technical division and get their comments on 'taking the mobo outside the cabinet using the method just described. Even this does not allow for the non-use of a static pad on the workbench for the mobo mounted to a metal plate. This assembly of the mobo mounted to a metal plate outside the case but still wired directly into the cabinet (as if the mobo was mounted inside the cabinet) would probably work but the mobo/metal plate must still sit on a static pad with a ground connection; the person doing all this work must also be wearing a wrist strap made for 'static control'. The floor must be as 'friendly as possible' regards static ie. wood floor best, concrete maybe, nylon rug (or other polyesters, last).

    The metal plate should be connected to the case with a #16 or #14 copper wire as additional protection against a static discharge.

    Just setting the motherboard outside the case on wood or cardboard is not sufficient to prevent a static discharge. It may be that there is a ground wire connection from the case to the motherboard, but not necessarily. Remember that inside the case there are apx 10 brass (or other metal) standoffs from the ground trace on the mobo to the metal cabinet, ie: apx 10 ground points. When you pull the mobo outside the case, you may have one ground wire from mobo going back into the case. A static discharge occurs in 'microseconds', not milliseconds or seconds. The small ground wire going from mobo back to the cabinet may not be sufficient to handle the discharge as quickly as would 10 metal standoffs that provide 10 routes for a microsecond discharge to occur.

    It is also possible that depending on the mobo manufacturer, the ground trace thru out the mobo may not be 'continous' over the entire mobo. The ground trace may be interrupted several times because the metal standoffs become the 'route' to a chassis
    ground connection. This is speculation on my part, but it can be confirmed as one way or the other.
    -------------
    Only the manufacturers who build and test motherboards to a common standard know this exact procedure or requirements.
    -------------
    Why is wrist strap and computer case static protection so important? It is entirely possible to have a static discharge to occur in a fraction of a microsecond that will damage a mobo component in such a way that it does not completely fail for some extended time period. For example the static discharge occurs but the mobo still operates. A week or month goes by, and, strange occurrences start to occur. At some point failure to operate occurs and then 'diagnosis and repair' has to happen.
    -----------------------
    The problem that is driving my comments is that static on the human body can reach high voltages (will give a number later, I assume 10k to 20k volts is possible), so the wrist strap as well as proper grounding of the case is mandatory.
    Last edited by zburns; 03-18-2014 at 04:50 PM.

  9. #9
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    Using the Statico or similar 'high resistance conductive pad'.

    When using the Statico Pad, the component (mobo presumably) must be removed from the desktop computer housing . The component is isolated on the Statico pad. The Statico pad is connected to ground via a clip lead. This allows a static discharge to
    'bleed off' to ground.

    The Statico Pad is a low resistance insulating pad. It is 12 inches square and the ohm (resistance) measurement is approximately 57,000 ohms which is a low number compared to mega ohms. Meg ohms can be a fraction of a meg ohm or 500,000 ohms or another value. A meg ohm by definition is one million ohms. A 10 meg resistor means 10 million ohms. Obviously 57,000 ohms is a low resistance by comparison.

    Because the Statico Pad may be described as a low resistance pad, it should be used as a 'static prevention' pad only, meaning no electrical power is ever applied to the pad. Static discharges occur in micro seconds; voltages in the 10,000 (10k) to 20,000
    (20k) or even higher can occur.

    Unequivocally, the operator or builder wears a wrist strap connected to ground, all the time while working on or inside the computer case. The computer case should also be attached to ground the entire time.

    The Statico foam pad measures 12 by 12 inches and is approximately 57,000 ohms resistance from one diagonal corner to the opposite diagonal corner. This is too low a resistance to lay a 'hot' (power on) motherboard on for testing purposes. If you the
    builder uses a Statico foam pad, you do so only when NO POWER is applied to the computer and the component that is to lay on the Statico pad is 100 % removed from the computer. As long as the Statico pad is in use, suggest that the user/operator removes the power cord from the computer cabinet before using the Statico pad. As stated above, place the power cord in a location away from the computer; do not use the Statico pad for any test work if the computer is turned on.

    The purpose of the Statico pad is to allow the circuit board (mobo or other circuit boards) to, presumably, be immune to a static discharge, or minimize the danger if a static discharge occurs. (For example, a lighting strike on the house, or, a huge pole transformer failure).

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