1st time build need recommendations

[coskel]

Hi all -

We do live video streaming and have been using off the shelf for years, and its time to go with a custom rig.
I saw a thread on here about a Gigabyte MB with Thunderbolt, which we are interested in.

Looking for recommendations on HW, and on how to build. This would be a first time build ever for us.
Our experience to date is mostly with replacing drives, PCI cards, adding memory.
We are budget conscious and will have a limit.

[zburns]

I will have some comments tomorrow. Spent time today getting familiar with Thunderbolt, as best I could. It seems to be essentially (analogous) to a carrier signal with 10 separate signals riding on the carrier signal. Compared to normal desktop operation, this type composite signal could cause the cpu to run hotter because it could be processing more data per unit time than most multi core cpus running four or eight cores simultaneously but in a 'non - thunderbolt design or configuration'.

What I just said above is two 'similar' operations but they differ in that the Thunderbolt composite signal is probably a more 'continuous intense signal' than is the 4 or eight core normal operation of a quad core cpu with 'non-thunderbolt' type data passing thru the cpu (the non thunderbolt data being less intense). Other than 'coping' with this 'signal intensity difference', the two computer builds would be similar.

I literally just stumbled across this url which is for a Win 8 system a Gbyte mobo that includes rear ports for Thunderbolt inputs: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2013741/build-a-killer-windows-8-gaming-pc-for-under-1-000.html Not saying these are the best component choices but at least it is a guide.
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If you are running streaming video continuous, what frame rate do you normally use?

[coskel]

Usually 30 fps is our frame rate, and events are usually 3-4 hours, but sometimes we have done festivals that are 10-12 hours.
Another thing I thought about is environment.
This will be in a prod truck, so humidity/heat/cold are always a factor.
Yes, the truck has air/heat, but what should I do about humidity?

I am assuming that if the cpu runs hotter due to Thunderbolt then I am looking at a larger case, larger power, and more fans?
I usually use NVidia cards by the way and am pretty brand loyal.

[zburns]

Sorry for the delay. Please describe the environment that you will use this computer in, meaning what is the nature of the festivals and the availability of 'clean' 110 volt power.

Do you plan to use this computer inside the truck, all the time? Is the truck the permanent home for the computer? When the truck is being driven, the computer case must sit in a well cushioned 'container' (for lack of a better word). For example you should not allow the computer to sit upon a desk or table when the truck is being driven and, therefore, subject the computer to the vibration transmitted from the road -- you should not even do this EVEN one time! The components in a desktop computer (including the case) are meant to be used in a clean room environment and on a table absolutely stationary all the time; my point being that the truck conditions must 'simulate' this 'stationary room environment' from a vibration and dust free environment.

When you are at a festival, is the truck parked in a 'dusty environment' ?

Regards your humidity comment, you would have to consider moisture as a problem. You basically want a 'home' or 'office' environment' from a 'cleanliness' and dry air perspective. There is always a solution to a problem but it can be an expensive solution.

What kind of truck meaning size do you use?

Here is a url on a speed improvement to Thunderbolt (appears to be a joint agreement between Apple and Intel): http://www.crn.com/news/components-peripherals/240152560/intel-new-thunderbolt-spec-doubles-throughput-resolution.htm

More comments tomorrow!

Your comment:
I am assuming that if the cpu runs hotter due to Thunderbolt then I am looking at a larger case, larger power, and more fans? Cpu may or may not run hotter; I am more concerned about the conditions -- dust inside the truck and ambient temp when the computer is used, vibration during travel, etc..

[coskel]

We learned the hard way years ago about trucks/computers/vibration. Its an ENG news van, so it rides very smoothly, but we still have a padded base for the PC that helps reduce vibration.

Clean 110 is always an issue for us. Sometimes we run off our truck generator. And yes the PC "lives" in the truck.


Sorry for the delay. Please describe the environment that you will use this computer in, meaning what is the nature of the festivals and the availability of 'clean' 110 volt power.

Do you plan to use this computer inside the truck, all the time? Is the truck the permanent home for the computer? When the truck is being driven, the computer case must sit in a well cushioned 'container' (for lack of a better word). .

[zburns]

I apologize for the delay. I am trying to get familiar with 'ENG news vans' and the voltage / current problems inherent with such an operation.

You have used store purchased computers evidently in the past. Have they just 'failed' somewhere along the line. If so, did random card or component failure cause the problem?

What other type electronic equipment do you have in the van to support your mobile ENG operation ?

The incoming voltage regardless of the source can be extremely 'dirty' in terms of voltage spikes and the quality of the waveform shape. To get around such a problem, a 'special designed electrical filter' is installed between the incoming voltage and your equipment. Do you presently have such an 'electrical filter' installed, and, if so please provide the manufacturer model number and name of the filter.

Please bear with me on the questions. Some of the answers will provide valuable information regards the computer build. I will have more questions tomorrow, but they should wind down soon. All this said differently would be my requirement that I know the 'most possible' about the operating environment that impacts or surrounds the computer.
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One other question. The other computers you have used -- approx how many and how long have they lasted! Did any just plain fail due to component failure? Did you replace a computer because it was not performing well enough to satisfy your goals.

[coskel]

Answers throughout.



You have used store purchased computers evidently in the past. Have they just 'failed' somewhere along the line. If so, did random card or component failure cause the problem?

I think just wear and tear. We're talking failure after 3-4 years of use every day in this type of environment. And not full out failure, we usually upgraded due to wanting a more powerful processor etc. OTS just doesn't have what it takes to run these apps.

What other type electronic equipment do you have in the van to support your mobile ENG operation ?

I do not understand this question - there is quite a bit of video/audio equipment in there

The incoming voltage regardless of the source can be extremely 'dirty' in terms of voltage spikes and the quality of the waveform shape. To get around such a problem, a 'special designed electrical filter' is installed between the incoming voltage and your equipment. Do you presently have such an 'electrical filter' installed, and, if so please provide the manufacturer model number and name of the filter.

i would have no idea what this is, or where in the walls it would be located. Most of the equipment is permanently installed behind walls in the van and is inaccessible. Assume for a worst-case scenario.

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One other question. The other computers you have used -- approx how many and how long have they lasted! Did any just plain fail due to component failure? Did you replace a computer because it was not performing well enough to satisfy your goals.
See first answer.

[zburns]

Comments on why a 'desktop computer' is not intended for use in a mobile environment, particularly a mobile environment on a daily basis.

1. Most desktops have a fan installed on top of the cpu. The cpu is mounted flat against the motherboard. The motherboard is mounted vertically within the case; therefore, the fan is 'cantilevered' horizontally out from the cpu and the bottom cooling plate of the fan physically touches all of the top heat sink surface of the cpu. Some of these fans, designed for maximum cooling, are apx 5 inches in height. In a worse case 'fan' and 'van' senario, the fan -- in the presence of vibration -- due to the movement of the van, acts like a 'lever arm' that causes 'unintended pressure' to occur on the top and bottom edges of the cpu.

This pressure occurs in sync with the van 'up and down' vibration. Over a period of time, months to years, it is reasonable to assume that this pressure due to the cpu fan will put 'unintended pressure on the top and bottom edges of the cpu. This added pressure or 'force' on the top of the cpu may have a long term effect on the cpu electronics, and, therefore on the life of the cpu. It is reasonable to 'assume this aforementioned scenario is the case'. The smaller the 'mass of the fan', the less effect on the cpu, therefore, longer cpu operation. The 'larger and heavier' the mass of the fan, the greater are the 'torqueing' forces acting on the cpu and the sooner the damage will occur.

In lieu of a cpu cooling fan, a water cooling system can be used with only a thin light weight thermal transfer system. Example, this url: http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=2768&pid=17 The liquid cooling system gets around the 'cantilevered heavy mass' problem described above -- use of liquid cooling still does not mean 'desktop computers' are suitable for 'mobile van operation'. A cpu cooling 'device', via liquid cooling thermal transfer, is a very thin device and will cause only a very small 'torque on the cpu which should have negligible to no effect on the cpu housing; therefore, no effect on the cpu due to vibration.

Cpu summary comment: The desktop computer 'assembled configuration' of components is not meant to be subjected to 'continous vibration' regardless of the source ! ! If the cpu fan in the present configuration is a thin fan, height wise, then it may have minimal effect on the cpu. If the cpu approaches a overheating threshold due to continous operation for some hours (the cpu will shut itself down at some point due to overheating) it may not shut down; it will continue to operate but at a high temp threshold below the shut down point. The "periodic continous high heating level' on a continuous basis 'may be a negative' regards 'long cpu life'. (This entire 'Summary comment' is hypothetical but, nevertheless, is a resonable assumption.)
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2. Video Card. The video card in an ATX case is plugged into a pcie x 16 slot for about half its length. The end of the video card with 'plugs' is screw fastened to the slots in the rear of case. The edge of the card plugged in to the pcie x 16 slot only uses about half the length of the card for the male circuit board insertion into the slot. The remainder of the card length is 'in the air and not fastened down generally including the long side of the card opposite to the slot long side. Point is the card is left to 'vibrate' in sync with the van vibration. Without running a 'very long vibration test' to see the effect on the card, there is really no way to know if damage to the video card's operation will occur or not.

3. Hard Drive. The computer hard drive is a 'spinning platter' at very high 'rpms' with a 'delicate' moving 'arm' to pick up or transmit data from the platter surface. My HD is a WD Black model and the it is mounted in a case slot for hard drives, but it is 'spring mounted' to 'dampen' out forces due to minor bumping or 'small drops of the case' from tipping the case or raising a corner a short distance and accidentially letting it go.

[zburns]

After completing the above post, I looked for 'industrial desktop style computers'. Here is the first url I came across: http://www.marposs.com/ftp/files/faq_indpc_115_en.pdf Go to page 3 for the table of contents. Take a look at item 2 on Page 3 in particular !!

[coskel]

So even though we have competitors all across the US doing the same exact thing with rackmounted equipment the replies are starting to sound like its impossible.
Since I can't get a look inside my competitors trucks and all the info I have been able to glean is "rack-mounted equipment", I'm flying close to blind here.

Any other suggestions?


After completing the above post, I looked for 'industrial desktop style computers'. Here is the first url I came across: http://www.marposs.com/ftp/files/faq_indpc_115_en.pdf Go to page 3 for the table of contents. Take a look at item 2 on Page 3 in particular !!

[zburns]

Below are three google urls regards ENG News Vans. Here is the Google 'topic' I used to pull up the references below: industrial desktop computer for ENG mobile vans. Since I am looking at the Google page url also, here are some of the urls that the 'topic' page will show: https://www.google.com/search?q=industrial+desktop+computer+for+ENG+mobil e+vans&rlz=1C1PRFB_enUS475US494&oq=industrial+desktop+computer+for+ENG+mobile+vans&aqs=chrome.0.57j62l3.34301j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

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https://www.google.com/search?q=ENG+News+Van+outfitters&rlz=1C1PRFB_enUS475US494&oq=ENG+News+Van+outfitters&aqs=chrome.0.57.17299j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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http://www.e-n-g.com/
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http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/10/new_trucks_play_catchup.php
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1.0 Computer Dynamics
http://www.cdynamics.com/p-240-displaypac-opr.aspx

2.0 New: The ARMOR X12kb Convertible Rugged Tablet
http://www.drsarmor.com/x12kb_spec.php

3.0 Marposs Industrial Computers
http://www.marposs.com/ftp/files/faq_indpc_115_en.pdf - Note: This is the brochure for Marposs; go to page 4 for a good explanation between Desktop PCs and Industrial PCs

http://www.marposs.com/product.php/eng/industrial_lcd_panel Note: This is just one product of Marposs.
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Later today I may post some 'comments' regards the info from the URLs above. One interesting item I read (probably from one of the above URLs) implied that the plug in sockets like the pcie x 16 slot on the motherboard is 'not reliable long term when subjected to vibration'. These plug in pcie sockets for 16 pin circuit boards have 'thin plated pressure contacts that touch both front and back of the circuit board plugged into the pcie slot'. The comment I refer too implies that vibration 'degrades' the motherboard plug in pcie sockets over a time period measured (probably) in years.

If this is true, then it implies that all 'devices' mounted within a ENG News Van do not use, or should not use, any 'pcie x 16' female sockets in a particular device.

It may be that electronic computer devices cannot, or should not, use 'plug in sockets' unless 'military grade (if they exist) for the simple reason that over time vibration will degrade the 'pci e type socket'. The companies I mention above should be able to discuss and confirm this pcie socket problem if it exists.

[coskel]

I really do appreciate the information you have been sending me, but I'm having trouble understanding why we are getting so far away from the actual topic, which is to recommend a build so I don't have to buy OTS anymore.

If the PC wears out in 2-3 years, thats OK, whether its is due to road vibration or anything else. If I have to setup/teardown the machine every broadcast I can do that as well.

Is there anyway to get back on topic so I can get some suggestions and get started?

Many Thanks



Below are three google urls regards ENG News Vans. Here is the Google 'topic' I used to pull up the references below: industrial desktop computer for ENG mobile vans. Since I am looking at the Google page url also, here are some of the urls that the 'topic' page will show: https://www.google.com/search?q=industrial+desktop+computer+for+ENG+mobil e+vans&rlz=1C1PRFB_enUS475US494&oq=industrial+desktop+computer+for+ENG+mobile+vans&aqs=chrome.0.57j62l3.34301j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

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https://www.google.com/search?q=ENG+News+Van+outfitters&rlz=1C1PRFB_enUS475US494&oq=ENG+News+Van+outfitters&aqs=chrome.0.57.17299j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
-------------
http://www.e-n-g.com/
----------
http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/10/new_trucks_play_catchup.php
---------
--------------------
1.0 Computer Dynamics
http://www.cdynamics.com/p-240-displaypac-opr.aspx

2.0 New: The ARMOR X12kb Convertible Rugged Tablet
http://www.drsarmor.com/x12kb_spec.php

3.0 Marposs Industrial Computers
http://www.marposs.com/ftp/files/faq_indpc_115_en.pdf - Note: This is the brochure for Marposs; go to page 4 for a good explanation between Desktop PCs and Industrial PCs

http://www.marposs.com/product.php/eng/industrial_lcd_panel Note: This is just one product of Marposs.
--------
Later today I may post some 'comments' regards the info from the URLs above. One interesting item I read (probably from one of the above URLs) implied that the plug in sockets like the pcie x 16 slot on the motherboard is 'not reliable long term when subjected to vibration'. These plug in pcie sockets for 16 pin circuit boards have 'thin plated pressure contacts that touch both front and back of the circuit board plugged into the pcie slot'. The comment I refer too implies that vibration 'degrades' the motherboard plug in pcie sockets over a time period measured (probably) in years.

If this is true, then it implies that all 'devices' mounted within a ENG News Van do not use any 'pcie x 16' female sockets in a particular device.

It may be that electronic computer devices cannot use 'plug in sockets' unless 'military grade (if they exist) for the simple reason that over time vibration will degrade the 'pci e type socket'. The companies I mention above should be able to discuss and confirm this pcie socket problem if it exists.