Help: first gaming PC

[Zoken01]

Hi :)
I'm posting here because I'm searching for help building a PC..
My budget is around 1300$, I do plann on overclocking my CPU.

So here's what I thought:

-Tower: I hesitate between 3..
- http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=fractal+design+define+r4&x=0&y=0 (any color)
- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aerocool-X-Predator-Tower-Gaming-Orange/dp/B004FS0594
- http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=nzxt+phantom (any color)

-Supply: SeaSonic S12II 520 Bronze http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151094

-MotherBoard: ASUS P8Z77-V LE http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131848

-Processor: Intel Core i5-3570K (3.4 GHz)http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116504

-CPU Fan: Noctua NH-C12P SE14 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608019&Tpk=Noctua%20NH-C12P%20SE14

-RAM: Kingston HyperX Blu 8GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104262

-Graphic Card: Sapphire Radeon HD 7870 GHz Edition 2 GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102983

-Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236339

-Burner: http://www.ebuyer.com/290171-lg-bh10ls38-sata-blu-ray-optical-drive-retail-bh10ls38-auar

-Screen: http://www.iiyama-monitors.co.uk/products/E2473HDS-B1.aspx

I'd like to know what do you think about this build and any advice or comments you want to make just let me know :)
Oh and I'm looking for some nice gaming mouse and keyboard (I thought about the razer Lycosa but not sure) so if you could help me out with that too it would be great.

Thanks a lot, Zoken.

[zburns]

Hi Zoken and welcome to the forums,

EDIT 12:15PM, Sunday: Please disregard my comments on the Noctura Cooler as having a 'cantilever problem' -- I looked at some better photos of it, and, it is not a cantilever design. The routing of the 'cooling pipes' made me think along the 'cantilever concept'. Fins directly from the top of the heat sink to the radiator support the cooler in a normal 'straight down to the top of the cpu' design.

I will try to keep my comments brief. If you want me to expand on anything, please say so!

First, there is no 'glaring mistake or error' in anything you have picked, as far as I can see. If it were my build, I would consider some changes.

Hard Drive. Over the years, the opinion expressed on this forum regards Western Digital is to go with WD 'Black' Hard Drives. They are slightly more expensive than Blue; however, they are mechanical, and, presumably the 'Black' drives are better 'mechanically'. Try to stay at 7200 RPM.

Second, the Z77 chipset on the motherboard is important because it allows you to use a small solid state drive for the cache for the larger Hard Drive. 64 GB is sufficient, twice that if you want to put the OS on the SSD drive for faster boot times; but it is the cache increase in response time that you will see every time you 'click Enter' that matters.

Third is the Noctua Fan. It is a 'cantilever design' anchored on top of your cpu. I doubt that you will find my comment (this comment) on any review, but here goes! That cooler is a 'cantilever design'. The cooler radiator and fan has 'mass'. If you drop your 'fully assembled' case any small distance, that cantilevered design will put 'more stress' on the cpu and motherboard, than if the 'mass' of the radiator was mounted directly on top of the cpu (It is also true that if you were transporting the cpu laying on its side, and had a tall tower cooler sitting directly on top of the cpu, the weight of the cooler tower would exert a similar force on the cpu. However, the cantilever design of your choice comes into play with the computer in its normal rest position -- say you move it a foot or so on a table by picking up one end and dragging it and you 'accidentally let it drop a inch or two, then the cpu does get 'stressed' depending on the 'mechanics in play at the time'.

Fourth. The motherboard is fine, but if you check the specs on the Asus website (this URL: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Z77V_LE/#specifications -- footnote #1, page bottom), you will see that the motherboard has one PCIxE slot that will run at x16 speed but if you want to go to dual SLI operation or Crossfire, the speed is reduced to x4. To change this right now, means stepping up to a more expensive Asus mobo.

Here is the spec from the Asus website:
Expansion Slots:

1 x PCIe 3.0/2.0 x16 (blue) *3 (footnote 3) -- for one GPU card only, this slot runs at x16 speed.

1 x PCIe 2.0 x16 (x4 mode, black) *4 (footnote 4) -- once you go to SLI or Crossfire, two x16 slots in use, speed drops to x4 mode for both graphics cards.
2 x PCIe 2.0 x1
3 x PCI

So with the current motherboard choice, if you want the fastest speed always, you stick with one graphics card. Two graphics cards on this mobo will cost you speed. So if you ever plan to go to dual cards or more, then you need to upgrade your current mobo choice.

One last comment relative to video card, motherboard and power supply. If you ever choose to go to two video cards, both motherboard and power supply would be affected. Mobo because of the x16 slot speed change and PSU because the total wattage is way too low for two video cards in SLI or crossfire operation.

Last Comment: Power Supply and Case. Regard the case, one of them has a lot of 'angular' shapes on the top -- huge dust collector which you will get tired of. The NZXT is popular but 'very angular' from a design viewpoint. Read reviews on any case choice. If there are no reviews available, forget the case. Take a look at Antec cases, a wide choice and high quality!

Power Supply. Take a look at Antec power supplies that have four +12 volt rails -- far superior and more expensive design than cheaper single rail design. Single rail designs are popular because of low price by comparison. Single rail designs generally have only one set of protection circuits. An Antec four rail +12 volt design has 4 sets of protection circuits (one for each rail) at lower ampers per rail than does a single rail design.

I am going to stop here because I have presented a number of alternatives, and, I have probably reached (and passed) the stage of 'causing confusion'.

Ask any questions!

[Zoken01]

Hi :) ! First of all thanks for answering me !


Hard Drive. Over the years, the opinion expressed on this forum regards Western Digital is to go with WD 'Black' Hard Drives. They are slightly more expensive than Blue; however, they are mechanical, and, presumably the 'Black' drives are better 'mechanically'. Try to stay at 7200 RPM.
So..I didn't understand very well why the fact of being "mechanical" improves the Hard Drive..and could you suggest one ?


Second, the Z77 chipset on the motherboard is important because it allows you to use a small solid state drive for the cache for the larger Hard Drive. 64 GB is sufficient, twice that if you want to put the OS on the SSD drive for faster boot times; but it is the cache increase in response time that you will see every time you 'click Enter' that matters.
So..you're pointing this like I made a good choice picking a motherboard that has the Z77 chipset ?
Otherwise I don't understand the point of the comment lol ^^ Sorry about that, my english level is actually pretty poor.. Oh and by the way I don't plan on buying an SDD Hard Drive as it doesn't make any impact on gaming (just on loading time)

Ok for the Noctua Fan :) Read the Edit ^^ they told that it wasn't that good for the price and my friend suggested me this one better: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103099 He said it is as good as performances goes and half priced. What do you think ?


Fourth. The motherboard is fine, but if you check the specs on the Asus website (this URL: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Int...specifications -- footnote #1, page bottom), you will see that the motherboard has one PCIxE slot that will run at x16 speed but if you want to go to dual SLI operation or Crossfire, the speed is reduced to x4. To change this right now, means stepping up to a more expensive Asus mobo.

Here is the spec from the Asus website:
Expansion Slots:

1 x PCIe 3.0/2.0 x16 (blue) *3 (footnote 3) -- for one GPU card only, this slot runs at x16 speed.

1 x PCIe 2.0 x16 (x4 mode, black) *4 (footnote 4) -- once you go to SLI or Crossfire, two x16 slots in use, speed drops to x4 mode for both graphics cards.
2 x PCIe 2.0 x1
3 x PCI

So with the current motherboard choice, if you want the fastest speed always, you stick with one graphics card. Two graphics cards on this mobo will cost you speed. So if you ever plan to go to dual cards or more, then you need to upgrade your current mobo choice.

Good to know :) but unfortunely 2 graphic cards is too expensive and I think it's better having a single good card than 2 (for the same amount of money)


Last Comment: Power Supply and Case. Regard the case, one of them has a lot of 'angular' shapes on the top -- huge dust collector which you will get tired of. I think you mean this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aerocool-X-Predator-Tower-Gaming-Orange/dp/B004FS0594 .. That's very true lol
I think I'll go for the Fractal Design Define R4 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352020 which as very good reviews everywhere.


Power Supply. Take a look at Antec power supplies that have four +12 volt rails -- far superior and more expensive design than cheaper single rail design. Single rail designs are popular because of low price by comparison. Single rail designs generally have only one set of protection circuits. An Antec four rail +12 volt design has 4 sets of protection circuits (one for each rail) at lower ampers per rail than does a single rail design.
What would be the benefit of having four +12 rails ? I don't quite understand how the Supplies goes..does the one I posted have only 1 ? Is it better to have 4 for gaming ? I have read very good reviews of the one I posted..Please help me out :confused:

Thanks a lot :D !

[zburns]

Hard Drives are 'mechanical devices', ie. magnetic disks that spin at a high speed and a 'sensor arm that picks up the data'. Look at this URL: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/internal/desktop/ . At the bottom of the WD page are the warranties for WD Blue, WD Green and WD Black. Note that the warranties for the Blue and Green drives are two years while the WD Black drive warranties is 5 years. There is not a lot of difference in price; it is simply safer to purchase the better and presumably longer lasting 'Black' version of the WD drives.

The Z77 chipset is the best choice. Your choice of motherboard is good but it will run at PCIe x 16 speed for only one video card. If in the future you decide you wanted two video cards, the speed of both cards in SLI or crossfire would drop to 25% of the speed when only running one card. To be able to run two identical video cards in SLI operation at maximum 'x16' speed, the motherboard must have two PCIeX16 video card slots, both of which run at x16 speed.

I am just saying that you did choose a good motherboard because it will run one video card at x16 speed but in the future if you did want two cards and retain the x16 speed, you would have to upgrade the motherboard. But for one card only, you are in good shape.

Regards the power supplies, take a look at this Antec supply that has four separate +12volt rails at 30 amps each and each rail has its own protection circuit that trips in the 35 amp to 45 amp range. http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=704513&fid=11

The Seasonic psu you choose I believe is 520 watts. I think your video card mfg recommends a minimum 550 watt psu. I always like to add about 100 watts to a 'wattage' recommendation. The +12 volt rail output on the Seasonic is 40 amps @ +12 volts for a maximum wattage of 480 watts. You may be ok with this amount of wattage, but it is cutting it a little close.
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EDIT:The Hyper 212 cooler as a substitute is used by a lot of forum members. It is taller than your first choice and will exert more 'torque' on the cpu if the case is bumped around a lot or dropped even short distances; but it is very popular.

[Zoken01]

Hard Drives are 'mechanical devices', ie. magnetic disks that spin at a high speed and a 'sensor arm that picks up the data'. Look at this URL: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/internal/desktop/ . At the bottom of the WD page are the warranties for WD Blue, WD Green and WD Black. Note that the warranties for the Blue and Green drives are two years while the WD Black drive warranties is 5 years. There is not a lot of difference in price; it is simply safer to purchase the better and presumably longer lasting 'Black' version of the WD drives.

If it only changes the lenght of the warranty and only the cache I don't think I'll go for the WD black :) but thanks for the info :D


The Z77 chipset is the best choice. Your choice of motherboard is good but it will run at PCIe x 16 speed for only one video card. If in the future you decide you wanted two video cards, the speed of both cards in SLI or crossfire would drop to 25% of the speed when only running one card. To be able to run two identical video cards in SLI operation at maximum 'x16' speed, the motherboard must have two PCIeX16 video card slots, both of which run at x16 speed.

I am just saying that you did choose a good motherboard because it will run one video card at x16 speed but in the future if you did want two cards and retain the x16 speed, you would have to upgrade the motherboard. But for one card only, you are in good shape.

Ok :) I'm glad I've chose the good one ^^ And yes, I don't think I'll ever take 2 graphic cards but it's good to know that I would have to change it to have the maximum speed ! Thanks again for the info :)


Regards the power supplies, take a look at this Antec supply that has four separate +12volt rails at 30 amps each and each rail has its own protection circuit that trips in the 35
amp to 45 amp range. http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=704513&fid=11

The link doesn't work :/ I have been told in others forums that the watts didn't have an impact on the components, that it was the amperage that matters..So if you could extend a little bit about that it would be great..

So I just have a doubt about the Supply anymore.. I think the rest is good :)


EDIT:The Hyper 212 cooler as a substitute is used by a lot of forum members. It is taller than your first choice and will exert more 'torque' on the cpu if the case is bumped around a lot or dropped even short distances; but it is very popular.

Yes, I think I'll go for the EVO after looking at some tests, what do you think about it ? Will it be good enough for overcloking my 3570k up to 4.5GHz ?
Thanks again :)

[zburns]

I do not think the EVO will be strong enough wattage wise. In my earlier comments I did not consider overclocking; I thought it was boderline on wattage without any consideration or extra wattage allowance when the cpu is overclocked . I will post more detail tomorrow and my logic.

[zburns]

Here are the Intel specs on your cpu: http://ark.intel.com/products/65520/Intel-Core-i5-3570K-Processor-6M-Cache-up-to-3_80-GHz

Non overclocked clock speed is 3.4 GHz. You want to go to 4.5 GHz which is a 32 % increase. Logically, your cpu max TDP requirement will increase at least 32% to slightly over 100 watts from 77 watts.

Graphics Card specs at this URL: http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentation/product/?cid=1&gid=3&sgid=1160&lid=1&pid=1487&leg=0#. From this spec you can see that 2 - 75 watt 6 pin connectors are required that are in addition to the 75 watt plug in slot in the motherboard. The mobo slot plus the two connectors come to 225 watts without overclocking.

The Seasonic PSU voltage outputs are this from the Newegg spec: +3.3V@24A, +5V@24A, +12V@40A, -12V@0.8A, +5VSB@2.5A -- these are maximum outputs for each of the voltage rails but not at the same time; they simply represent how hard each rail can be pushed. The + 12 volt rail has a maximum output of 480 watts (I would hope this means continuous output, but they do not say). The rest of the power supply has a maximum output of all the other rails of 221 watts (but not all of that is simulataneous), but lets assume that half that amount 110 watts can be continuous.

Assume the 480 watts and 110 watts can occur at the same time for a total of 590 watts, but the max rating of the entire psu is only 520 watts -- so for lack of other information, we have to accept 520 watts. So that is about a 10% decrease to get to 520 watts.

Lets derate the +12 volt rail from 480 watts to 480 minus 10% or 48 watts, down to apx 430 watts. So this 430 watts must supply the +12 volt rail. The other four separate voltages ( +3.3V@24A, +5V@24A, +12V@40A, -12V@0.8A, +5VSB@2.5A ) are supplied by the difference of 520 watts (total max wattage) minus the +12 volt rail or 520 - 430 or right about 90 watts (this is reasonable since the max watt output, separately, of the four voltages is 221 watts.

This means the effective wattage available from the +12volt rail is 430 watts.(xx -- lets just cut it down by 50 watts from the other four voltages, leaving the +12 volt rail that powers the video and computing to 380 watts.xx)

Now look at what has to make up the 380 watts under an overclock 32 % of more power required: 380 times 32% increase (380 watts x 1.32 = 501 watts) -- almost the total output of the psu. -- this alone proves that the psu you contemplate using will not handle the load of the cpu / video card combo under overclock conditions. The video card alone is powered by the X16 slot that provides up to 75 watts and the two six pin plugs provide 75 watts each, so the video card in non overclock conditions can draw up to 225 watts total (not saying it does this, just that the 'design' allows for that much wattage to the video card.

The above is an exercise to prove that the +12 volt wattage of the psu is insufficient for the video card contemplated under overclock conditions.

I suggest you make a call to the Sapphire tech support section and get them to make a psu recommendation based on a 32 % overclock of the i5 3570k cpu.
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A related comment that I did not mention is this: When recommending a power supply, I always base the recommendation on the power supply NEVER running at full capacity for any length of time. To do so means to run the psu at maximum heat levels of the transformer -- which makes no sense from a wanting a long 'lifetime use' of the psu. Instead you add into the psu wattage requirements some 'headroom' -- a generous allowance of extra wattage that you 'feel' will never be used -- which also means that the psu will never be run at full maximum output for extended periods of time (game playing).

Therefore, I always add in at a minimum 100 watts to a so called 500 watt specification. Even more than 100 watts for psus rated at 600 or 700 watts.
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The psu is the most important component you buy - it must operate flawlessly for the entire life of the computer. While it is wise to limit the prices you are willing to pay for other components, you should do the opposite for power supplies. You need a good power supply from a reputable mfg and one with plenty of headroom.

Again it would be best if you call Seasonic and ask their opinion on the psu size under overclock conditions.

[Zoken01]

I got to be honest, I didn't understand anything...could you simply suggest one spu for my build ? Just knowing I will be overclocking to 4.4, 4.5 GHz .. I read 4 or 5 times your post after all I still don't understand lol..sorry..

And about the Hard Drive, you were right, the WD blue sucks, so I'm getting the black, what do you think about http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136533 ?

Thanks again for the information and dedication to me..I really appreciate it.

[zburns]

My recommendation of the power supply would be a Antec EA-650 Platinum. Here is the URL: http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=704513&fid=11

This psu has 4 + 12 volt rails. (Note, that Antec has a EA-650 Green model and YOU DO NOT WANT THIS ONE -- only because it has two + 12 volt rails).

The advantage of 4 + 12 volt rails is the following. It is your video card running at a max frame rate that is going to push your power supply. By having four rails, you spread the 'power' over 'more protection circuits', one for each rail. Your motherboard will be on one rail, your cpu on a second rail and part of your video card on a third rail, and your hard drive and DVD on a fourth rail -- and each rail has its own protection circuit.

Note that the video card draws its power not only from the motherboard 16 pin slot (PCIEX16 slot), 75 watts from the mobo slot; the video card has two plug in 6 pin connectors also, and each of these provide a max of 75 watts additional to the video card, so that the video card 'can' draw a max of 225 watts (3 x 75) under full load without overclocking; however, overclocking does not drive up the wattage going to the video card very much, if at all. Under overclock conditions, the cpu wattage requirement does go up in proportion to the 'clock frequency' of the cpu.

Again, the recommendation for the psu is the Antec Model EA-650 Platinum.

I emphasize this comment: The power supply is the single most important component of your computer. Only a proven high quality psu should ever be used. You can cut corners on price and quality of the other components but not on the power supply. When a power supply fails, as in short circuiting, etc., all components wired to the psu are at risk. Point is that the purchase of a 'known high quality psu' is the best way to have confidence that all components have 'excellent protection' against 'electrical failure'.
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The Western Digital choice for the WD Black drive is correct; I did look at your link and it is a WD Black drive, 1 TB capacity.