Second Opinion

[Brock]

So I've chosen all the parts for the computer I'd like to build, however before I spend $2,000 I'd like someone other than me to look over everything and make sure things are compatible. This is my first time building and I'd like not to make a simply mistake, also any suggestion are welcome.

Here's my part list,
Processor http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115229
Graphic Card http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130769
Motherboard http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131802
Case http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119160&nm_mc=OTC-FroogleNEW&cm_mmc=OTC-FroogleNEW-_-Cases+(Computer+Cases+-+ATX+Form)-_-Cooler+Master-_-11119160
Power Supply http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817121090
Memory http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231589&nm_mc=OTC-FroogleNEW&cm_mmc=OTC-FroogleNEW-_-Memory+%28Desktop+Memory%29-_-G.SKILL-_-20231589
Processor Cooler http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233087
Hard Drive http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136533&nm_mc=OTC-FroogleNEW&cm_mmc=OTC-FroogleNEW-_-Hard+Drives-_-Western+Digital-_-22136533


As far as I can tell everything goes together and should work. One of the main things I'm worried about is the ram not matching the motherboard, but I'm not sure how to tell.

[zburns]

Hi Brock and welcome to the forums,

Several 'very serious' comments. The type build you describe does have a high cost associated with it. In order to get the benefit of the component features of the build, you will have to go to three way or four way SLI operation at a much increased cost over the build list above. The motherboard is expensive but is designed for four way SLI, meaning quad channel RAM and four or five PCIe X 16 slots (for the quad SLI operation).

If it is not your intent to more or less immediately go to three way SLI or four way SLI, then I suggest you drop down in the 'motherboard spec category' to a lower price, lower feature motherboard. The 'lower feature' comment does not imply a 'lesser quality' mobo, just one without the four or five SLI, PCIx16 slots and the quad channel RAM.

I assume the X79 chipset is primarily a chipset oriented towards gaming. It lacks some features of the Z77 chipset, which is a more 'general type chipset with features that cover a large landscape by comparison. For example the Z77 chipset allows you to use a SSD for the HD cache, which takes away the 'delay' caused by 'HD searching' (Edit: meaning, hard drive cache 'searching') during a 'keyboard command prompt' -- meaning your everyday, every keyboard 'click operation' is relatively instantaneous.
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Another pertinent comment is regarding the cooler. If you are planning to spend $ 2000 for a rig, a liquid cooler might be preferable based on the assumption that spending $ 100 or so for a liquid cooler is preferable to a low cost, fan/fin cooler which brings a repetitive dust problem into the picture.

If you are planning to go the 3 or 4 way SLI route, then the liquid cooler makes more sense because it is much more efficient in removing 'heat per unit time' than any fin type cooler.
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Notice that I ignored 2 way SLI; many of the lower cost motherboards have two X16 slots that will cover dual SLI. Only the high end mobos such as in your list, have three, four, or five X 16 slots for three or 4 way SLI -- at a much higher cost. The higher cost is 100% devoted to multiple SLI operation from a design viewpoint (my opinion).
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There are a lot of interconnecting comments or ideas regards my comments above. It would be helpful for Ricky Tick to comment also.

[RickyTick]

To go the Z77 route also means changing your cpu choice. The Z77 is a LGA1155 socket while that i7-3820 is LGA2011. But the setup listed above is definitely compatible.

I agree that $400+ for a motherboard is a lot of cash, unless you're a hardcore gamer and plan on some overclocking and a multiple video card setup.

Also, that power supply is a bit overkill for what you have listed here. You might want to consider something around 750 watts.

[Brock]

After 8 hours of thinking and planning I've refined my parts list.

Here's my changes,
Motherboard http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131821
Processor http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116501
Also I've added an SSD to the parts list http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148442&nm_mc=OTC-FroogleNEW&cm_mmc=OTC-FroogleNEW-_-Solid+State+Disk-_-Crucial-_-20148442

I really don't feel safe with a liquid cooler, something about mixing a computer and water seems bad. I think I want a bigger power supply, so I don't have to buy a new one if I add on more. I "downgraded" my motherboard, and got one with a Z77 chipset. I've picked a processor compatible with said motherboard. I'm going to put windows on the SSD and everything else on the hard drive in the first list and that about sums up my plan for this computer.

I hope I didn't misunderstand any advise. Any future comments are welcomed.

[RickyTick]

Looks great. Have fun! :)

[zburns]

I think I want a bigger power supply, so I don't have to buy a new one if I add on more.

There are two kinds of computer power supply designs. Initially, before gaming was 'Big Time', most psu designs had multiple rails for the +12 volt supply. By having multiple rails, the psu engineer has the design capability to limit the short circuit current on each rail to a value commensurate with what that rail voltage was used for. Even today, some psu designs still have, for example, 4 +12 volt rails with max ampere current around 25 amps for each rail, and going as high as say 40 amps for each rail. Each rail has a OCP -- over current protection -- that is a percentage higher. Look at the Antec power supplies for examples that have 'overcurrent protection' in the range of 35 amps to 40 amps to 53 amps (I am working from memory here).

The power supply you choose in your list has the following voltage / current ratings (from newegg 'details page'): +3.3V@24A, +5V@24A, +12V@81.5A, -12V@0.5A, +5VSB@3A

It is the + 12 volt rail that is 'dangerous' ; look at the spec above, and the voltage / current rating of +12V @ 81.5 amps. Add 15 % to the 81.5 Amp current value to get a 'over current protection' number (like a circuit breaker) and you have a overcurrent trip point of about 93 amps. So whatever the overcurrent trip point is (the 93 amps is a approximation on my part, but it will be close; if overstated, only by about 5 amps or so). 90 amps + or - thru any individual component will most likely 'destroy' that component. Yet the ATX standard allows this type design to exist. Your best protection against such a failure is a power supply with multiple +12 volt rails with the lowest possible overcurrent trip points.

Some individual components may have fuses or another type circuit for 'protecting that particular component' against 'short circuit current' or just 'current over and above what that component is designed for'. If the only protection is from the 'overcurrent rating' of the power supply, then the power supplies with only one +12 volt rail offer only a very high over current trip point for protection. Power supplies with multiple +12 volt rails and 'lower' trip points, currentwise, for each rail are far safer for the components.

It is worthwhile to mention that multiple +12 volt rail computer power supplies are more expensive to manufacture than a psu with only one +12 volt rail.

[Brock]

I think I'll get this power supply in that case, it has Four 12V rails and it cost less than the other one. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152044

So this one is safe right?

[Brock]

Also my CPU Cooler no longer matches the motherboard, I've picked out this one to replace it. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608018

[zburns]

Regarding the original 'single rail' psu choice:

Some or all of your components may have (I emphasize 'some') their own 'circuit board mounted fuses' that will protect the board first in the event of a short circuit (and even this is problematical from the standpoint of 'total protection' for that particular component). Take the cpu for example, 77 watts may be the TDP (total design power), at +12 volts feeding the cpu, the maximum current would be 6.4 amps; yet a short circuit in the right place allows, about, 90 plus amps thru your cpu -- if the only protection is the power supply 'overcurrent protection' circuits. But manufacturers of the individual circuit boards or components do not specify these 'protection devices' on their boards -- it is a subject that never comes up. So to get 'assurance' of suitable protection for components from short circuits, it is best to get a very well designed power supply.

Regarding the 'new' psu in your most recent post:

From a specification viewpoint, your later choice for psu qualifies with one exception and that is 'all the cabling is modular'. Take a look at two of my posts # 12 and # 14 several days ago regards 'modular cabling' on a computer power supply. Here is the link: http://forums.mysuperpc.com/showthread.php?4758-1st-build-advice-request/page2 -- again, posts # 12 and #14 on page 2.

While I hate to keep beating Antec's drum, they do an excellent job on power supplies from a design viewpoint. Here is the most important statement on Power Supplies: The power supply that runs a desktop computer must be dependable in ALL RESPECTS because failure of the psu, in any way, potentially can cause the failure of the other desktop components. So basically, you want a psu that because of its design and quality construction should protect your components from electrical failure.

The one component in a desktop build that you do not want to take a chance with is the power supply. It needs to be a top notch psu in all 'design respects'.

Cooler:

Regards the cooler, your initial pick is ok for socket 1155 which is the socket for your new motherboard choice. This being the case, do you still want to consider the Noctura double fin cooler you mention in your latest post?

EDIT - Friday am: Go to the cooler manufacturer's website and you will see Socket 1155 clearly stated; it is also, in the Newegg link you provided, albeit somewhat 'hidden' with other numbers in the Newegg 'product description'!!

[Brock]

After reading your posts, I planned to find a non-modular power supply. However after I found one online and looked at its reviews, I found that the main "Con" in the reviews was it wasn't Modular. There also seemed to be a lack non-modular power supplies online. In short, most everything I found points to modular being better, so I'm going to go with my previous choose for the power supply.

As for the cooler, I'm not sure why I thought the first one wasn't compatible. Even with that being the case, I do think I like the second cpu cooler more.

[zburns]

Take a look at this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Good_Signal

It is a short article but brings up a major point, actual quote from the article follows: "Cheaper and/or lower quality power supplies do not follow the ATX specification of a separate monitoring circuit; they instead wire the power good output to one of the 5 V lines. This means the processor will never reset given bad power unless the 5 V line drops low enough to turn off the trigger, which could be too low for proper operation." (end quote)

It is cheaper to manufacturer a psu that partially meets ATX specifications than to manufacture a product that meets the entire ATX spec.
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Modular vs non-modular:

I assume the ATX spec allows for the modular male/female plug assemblies. The alternative is to run the wires directly into the PSU housing and 'solder each wire' to its connection point which is more time consuming and requires a higher skill level on the part of the person doing the work. Sellers of modular psus tout the modular feature as 'making the wiring inside the case neater and more organized'. To convert one soldered wire to a male/female two plug connection requires three separate connections versus the one soldered connection. A total of 200 electrical connections where 50 will do the same job, BETTER.

If there are fifty wires that go into the psu housing, fifty 'soldered' connections are required. If this design is converted 100% to modular, the original 50 soldered connections have to still occur. In addition each male and each matching female plug have fifty 'mechanical' (meaning machine crimped) connections EACH, and, last when the male / female plugs are joined that is an additional 50 'plug in' connections where the male/female pins connect.

It is likely, the male and female pins are tin plated. A scratch on a pin can lead to corrosion and a later malfunction due to a poor (corrosion caused) connection, particularly for circuits where 'larger currents' occur.

Antec is a premier Power Supply manufacturer. Mostly, they are non-modular. On several psu models they use modular plugs for a little bit of the wiring, but (their quote) 'where it matters, they still run the cabling wires inside the psu and make direct solder connections'. In their separate webpages for each power supply, Antec states on their modular plugs they use 'gold' plated pins -- means no corrosion, long term; better guarantee of a good connection, long term.

The only argument in favor of modular is 'less skill level' required to manufacture and the 'marketing statement' regards 'neater cables and less clutter due to cables inside the case' (even Antec makes this statement where they use a few modular plugs).

Using the standard of 'the highest possible electrical quality performance is a single soldered wire connection', there is not one single electrical long term performance benefit in using modular over a soldered connection. From an electrical, reliability and quality viewpoint, it is not even a question open to debate. The reason modular plugs are used has to do with lower costs and lower skilled workers doing the work, and, it can be done faster (a point left out above), and cheaper. A better cost / benefit ratio for the manufacurer.
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Important EDIT:I would remind all readers of this post that the Wikipedia article mention at the top of this post is extremely important. It is a short article, read the last paragraph is most important -- A real eye opener!!

EDIT, regards reviewers comments on modular: They are in a tough position on this topic. I presume they are paid for advertisements by industry manufacturers; they have to be careful in what they say and how they say it.
My position on this topic is clear. A non-modular computer power supply, from a quality supplier, is statistically more reliable in the long term than a similar psu with all exterior connections via modular plugs, particularly if the pins are all tin plated. The term 'statistically more reliable' specifically refers to the long term 'electrical performance reliability of the computer circuits' and 'in reducing the long term possibility' of significant computer component damage due to a poor pin connection in the modular plug assemblies!

It is not that modular will not work; it does work. But this type design is relatively very poor when compared to a non-modular design where all cables are soldered in place and the only plug in connections are the cable plug terminals to the various components.

[Brock]

There is only one non-modular power supply on newegg that meets my requirements( or some of them at least)http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371050

However its not 1000w like I wanted, and the reviews seem to point to modular.

"Cons: not modular"

"Cons: Not modular making the cable somewhat difficult to manage."

"Cons: non-modular (though I knew this when buying it so it came as no suprise, just have to work a little harder at hiding the cables)"

"Cables are long stiff and hard to manage, you never end up needing them all. If you got a mid tower, buy a modular power supply."

"Not modular but that's pretty obvious so it's not a con at all really."

"Just one con , not a Modular the wires are a pane and looks messy"

"Would like to have had this modular. All the cables do get in the way but there are plenty of them."

I guess I could get this one but the reviews really seem to suggest the main flaw is that it isn't modular, and that seems to be the main reason I would be getting it. It seems a little illogical, despite your arguments.

[zburns]

Hi Brock, Sorry to be late getting back to you,

Note: Please look at my top of my post above and my reference to Wikipedia. The URL address I provided earlier today was wrong. I have corrected it. Please read the Wiki article, it is short but informative on the topic we are talking about. Particularly the last paragraph which is about power supplies.

The reviews that you list above are from the Newegg user reviews on the product page I think. I use Newegg 'user' reviews if I want 'user' reviews; and I do use them occasionally. If I want to see a technical review, I go to a source who actually has experience on the topic I am interested in. Here on this forum we do try to give advice based on actual experience.

You are going to get a large case, a full tower case. There will be ample room to hide unused cabling (maybe, I will have to look at one of the cases) or simply fold up any unused cables, tyrap them together and also to the case in a neat round / oblong group that does not interfere with any other component. I have an Antec Sonata case, a small version of a mid tower case, and, my unused cables are neatly tied up, completely out of the way and I have never even thought about this being a problem.

I will have to finish this in the morning, but I did want to get back to you with the above comments. From an electrical design viewpoint, plugging your component cables into the back side of the PSU housing is just not a good idea. There is no justification, electrically, for doing this. So I will expand more on this and hopefully, a different way than in my post above -- different slant.

Here is the Antec page URL for the 900 watt High Tech Gamer in case you only looked at Newegg. If so, take a look at the Antec spec page, right here: http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=2427&fid=339

[Brock]

I'm going to order my computer tomorrow, I plan to get the following.

Processor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116501)
Graphic Card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130769)
Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131821)
Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119160&nm_mc=OTC-FroogleNEW&cm_mmc=OTC-FroogleNEW-_-Cases+%28Computer+Cases+-+ATX+Form%29-_-Cooler+Master-_-11119160)
Power Supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371050)
Memory (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231589&nm_mc=OTC-FroogleNEW&cm_mmc=OTC-FroogleNEW-_-Memory+%28Desktop+Memory%29-_-G.SKILL-_-20231589)
Processor Cooler (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608018)
Hard Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136533&nm_mc=OTC-FroogleNEW&cm_mmc=OTC-FroogleNEW-_-Hard+Drives-_-Western+Digital-_-22136533)
SSD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148442&nm_mc=OTC-FroogleNEW&cm_mmc=OTC-FroogleNEW-_-Solid+State+Disk-_-Crucial-_-20148442)

[zburns]

Today I have talked to EVGA and Gigabyte and still have to talk to Gigabyte once more, also Antec. The EVGA rep actually recommended a minimum power supply of 1000 or 1200 watts based on the EVGA recommendation of 550 watts power supply for use with one card. I am certain the EVGA Rep is incorrect, but I am still in the process of proving it. The only reason you would want to purchase a 1000 watt psu is to run dual cards in SLI configuration so I am taking that into account. Once I have confirmed a safe choice for the total system wattage of two video cards, the rest of the computer plus some safety wattage addition, I can come up with a total wattage amount.

Your card choice has a wide number of variations in power (wattage) used, depending on overclocking and the specific card choice, plus it is relatively new.

[Brock]

Non-Modular power supplies don't come in large watt sizes, the max one I can find is 1000w. If I do need more than that then I'll have no choose but to get a Modular...

[zburns]

Sorry to be late with this post.

This URL is for the 1200 watt Antec Hi Current Pro which probably would be excellent for your build: http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=2468&fid=343 -- I am not saying that you need this much power right now, just pointing out it is a great psu.

It is not modular! There are three small color pictures in the upper left of the page. Click on any of the pictures and that picture will enlarge. The right hand small picture shows the back side of the psu with a thick bundle of cables going into the case.

One of the other views will show 4 plugs for 'plug in cables' -- these cables are power for the hard drives and some (2) of the pci e slots. All those wires/cables that are inside that bundle of wires going into the case, contain individual wires that are soldered to a specific 'terminal' inside the case. These are the critical wires for the motherboard, cpu, etc. where a good connection all the time matters.

I have added up the wattage for the computer which is easy to do. What I am doing now is searching for the 'increase' in wattage if you overclock. Mainly interested in the video cards for overclocking. This is not a precise exercise but it is a mistake to overdo the amount because the wattage adds up and kicks the Power Supply to a higher level. There has to be extra wattage (I call it 'headroom'), just to provide for some extra wattage to allow the psu not to be forced to run at a maximum level.

Your video card will draw right at 200 watts without overclocking. A identical second card will be the same. The cpu about 80 watts. Motherboard will require a small amount. Hard Drive the same. Then some extra watts to keep from running at max output wattage. There will be a detailed list.

Whether you want to overclock or not, you should go ahead and add wattage for overclocking any component really affected -- cpu and video card (s) and small amounts for the components barely affected. I will give you a list tomorrow that is self explanatory, and, then one or two psu choices based on the list. This affects your every day operation with the computer so it needs to be done right.

[Brock]

I do want to have 2 of the graphic cards, but I only plan on buying one at first and upgrading to two later. However I planned to buy a big power supply so I don't have to buy another power supply when I upgrade. Most likely should have said that earlier...

Also I don't overclock really. Oh, and the HCP-1200 cost much more than I'd like to spend on a psu.

[zburns]

A side note before I finish up on the psu wattage. Guru 3D is a German reviewer, in Germany ( I assume) and they (plural) are one of the best and most detailed of all reviewers. Here is a link to their site on the list of PSUs they have tested. They happen to like 'modular' very much. Included in their list is the Antec Hi Current Pro, 1000 watt (the only all modular psu from Antec). Anyhow, here is the link: http://www.guru3d.com/index.php?page=psu Their list is current with 2012 listings including the Antec.

[zburns]

In calculating your total wattage, the graphics card is the most demanding. Fortunately, the Guru3D did do a review of the Evga GeForce 680 Classified card which is a more powerful card by a small amount than the one you choose. The reason I know this is an 'unusual' reason. The auxiliary power plugs on your card choice are 6 pin only, two of them; on the Evga 680 card that Guru3d tested, their aux power plugs were 8 pin plugs, two of them. So on your card, the pcie x 16 slot can provide up to 75 watts of power max, and each 6 pin plug can provide up to 75 watts or up to 150 watts for two aux plugs. The 8 pin plugs on the Guru3D cards tested, each can draw a max of 150 watts each. So the version of the card tested by Guru 3d is a more powerful card than your choice.

On the last page of the Guru3D review, check out the last half of this short paragraph:

"Once you spend the extra money use an EVBOT you can increase voltages (albeit fixed). There's where the card can reach higher clock frequencies, at one point at 1.35V we reached 1500 MHz on the GPU, but seconds later it started throttling back in the 1200~1300 MHz range. It's due to two reasons, the current board power limitation is configurable at 131%. So theoretical if the card has a maximum set board power of 200W then at 131% it could reach 262 Watt, when it passes that point the GPU will throttle back to reach and match the maximum 131% again."

So I will use 262 watts for each of your two cards (assuming you buy a second card later), for a total of 524 watts for two Evga 680 cards (your part #). Now the list gets simpler: GSkill memory, 40 watts (estimate) per stick; WD Black HD, 6.8 watts; Asus motherboard 75 watts (estimate); i7-3770, TDP of 77 watts; and Noctua Cooler 1.2 watts. Total as follows: 524 + 80 + 6.8 + 75 + 77 + 1.2 = 764 watts.

You can probably get by with an Antec High Current Pro 850 watt model. Or the Antec 1000 watt model which is all modular but would give you 250 watts extra unused headroom. You can go with the original brand you picked out that is modular but you should stay at 1000 watts minimum.

The Antec High Current Pro 1200 has 8 +12 volt rails with a max current of 30 amps each. This probably is the most safe psu for individual +12 volt rail protection.
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This post has taken a long time to do today. I will review this later today and make changes if see the need to do so!!

[Brock]

Well I ordered it....before your post.
Sorry.
I choose to go with this for the power supply, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371050
900 watts isn't too bad.

Anyway, Thank you for all your help and advise.

[Brock]

The fan was too big to fit, in the motherboard...for the record.