New Builder

[Bryon]

Hey everyone!

I just wanted to intoduce myself. I have a decent tech background and I have taken PC's and Laptops apart many times, Done internships at repair centers, and in College at the moment for Computer Science. I am Male, 19. Needless to say I am poor, however I plan on this being a long term project so money isnt too much of an issue. I am looking for power at a decent price. Also this is my first official build.

I came accross your forums and I am currently going through the stickeys, however I thought I would introduce myself so you knew who I was.

I have been doing research the past week and I think I am set on the CPU I want.
CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz
Link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115070

I know there is a "Intel Core i7-2700K Sandy Bridge 3.5GHz" Out but I am using NewEgg and they are out of stock, I also didnt notice a big enough change for the extra money and fewer reviews seeing as its newer.

So any thoughts on that CPU? I was going to go with air cooling because I dont have the money for water cooling, but I planned on getting a case that allowed the upgrade so I can if I need it.

Bryon.

[RickyTick]

They are both more than capable processors. It's not uncommon to find the 2600K for less than $300. If you have a Microcenter close by, they usually have great prices. Shop around.

[Bryon]

Im in Western NY and I don't have a MicroCenter near me, They do have them in stock for cheaper however they are in-store only. Do you know any other websites like NewEgg that are reputable?

Also I didn't say what I was going to be using it for. Mostly for gaming, and doing streaming during gameplay.

I have been looking at this one case, and I really like it so far. Thoughts?
Case: COOLER MASTER HAF 922
Link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119197

[RickyTick]

Other places to try are:
http://us.ncix.com/
http://www.tigerdirect.com/
http://www.amazon.com/

Nice case. If you look at one of the links in my signature below, you'll find a few cases that I like.

[ARchamps]

I'd stick to the 2600K vs. the 2700K. The only difference is 100 Mhz, which you can achieve yourself by upping the multiplier. I have read reviews that the 2700K is easier to overclock to 5Ghz. You didn't mention if you were overclocking, so I'm just putting it out there. Have you already selected your other components? It's also worth mentioning that the new IvyBridge processors are rumoured to come out in March (same socket as 2600K), so you also have the option to see what that delivers. Some benchmarks leaked last week and there doesn't seem to be much of a performance boost. Depending on what you will be using your PC for, you could even step down to the i5 2500K.

Personally, I don't see the benefit of water cooling unless you are really pushing the limits of your machine and have the money for it. From what I've seen, they can be expensive and somewhat complicated, although it makes your system run cooler and quieter. You can get very decent air coolers for great prices. Some inexpensive heat sink options that provide great cooling is the Cooler Master 212+ Evo or the Corsair A50. Reviews on the Noctua coolers are better, but it's a little more expensive.

I'm only a few years older than you, so I understand the budget :P. My first built PC is in my sig and provides me with the upgrade path for the future and was pretty cheap for the power it packs.

Good luck!

[Bryon]

Thank you both for the advice, I think I am going to stay with the CPU as "Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz" As mentioned I did not say if I was open to over clocking or not, I AM open to it however I do not know much about it and I also do not want to do it unless I really need the performance boost.

So far the Build is at:

Case: COOLER MASTER HAF 922 ( Reviews seem great on this case, let me know if you know something else about it )
CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz ( Question, this is a 4 core, however because its multithreaded it will be seen as 8 cores? )

The GPU you have been eyeing is the:
GPU: Radeon HD 6950
Link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161372
Its not super high end yet it will get the job done. Anyone worked with the card before or have suggestions?

For the Ram I was going to go with:
RAM: 16GB (Corsair Vengeance)
Link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=600006127&IsNodeId=1&Description=16gb%20corsair%20vengeance&name=DDR3%201600%20%28PC3%2012800%29&Order=BESTMATCH
That link is to a list of different options for the RAM, I have no idea which one I should get. Thoughts?

For the PSU I dont have a clue, for the GPU I want they say "500 Watt or greater power supply with two 750W 6-pin PCI Express power connectos recommended" which confuses me, I know what a 500 Watt PSU is but what does the last part mean? And recomendations for PSU's?

And the MOBO, this has me most frustrated. I have been trying to find the right one and its not going well. Looked at some ASUS, but reviews say customer support is worse than horrible. And another thing is almost all the MOBOS have a great deal of reviews that complain of the product being DOA or getting boot loops, either right away or a few weeks later. Those are things I really dont want to deal with. Ideas on a MOBO?

I may not get a CD/DVD drive atm. I Have to wait and see how the money goes.

I will need a HDD, I wont be doing anything that needs huge storage, I want to get a decent one but at a good price, I can always upgrade later. Suggestions on a good one?

OS, I am going to go with Windows 7. However not sure whats the best way to go. Home, Pro, Ulti? As always cheaper the better :)

I may be missing something but that is all I have so far! Thanks everyone for taking the time to read this!!

Bryon

[RickyTick]

Thank you both for the advice, I think I am going to stay with the CPU as "Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz" As mentioned I did not say if I was open to over clocking or not, I AM open to it however I do not know much about it and I also do not want to do it unless I really need the performance boost.

So far the Build is at:

Case: COOLER MASTER HAF 922 ( Reviews seem great on this case, let me know if you know something else about it )
CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz ( Question, this is a 4 core, however because its multithreaded it will be seen as 8 cores? )

The GPU you have been eyeing is the:
GPU: Radeon HD 6950
Link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161372
Its not super high end yet it will get the job done. Anyone worked with the card before or have suggestions?


Excellent GPU. More than capable of playing games on high settings.



For the Ram I was going to go with:
RAM: 16GB (Corsair Vengeance)
Link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=600006127&IsNodeId=1&Description=16gb%20corsair%20vengeance&name=DDR3%201600%20%28PC3%2012800%29&Order=BESTMATCH
That link is to a list of different options for the RAM, I have no idea which one I should get. Thoughts?


16gb is a bit overkill. It won't hurt anything of course, but it could be somewhat of a waste. I know ram is cheap, but 8gb is more than enough, especially if you're working within a budget.



For the PSU I dont have a clue, for the GPU I want they say "500 Watt or greater power supply with two 750W 6-pin PCI Express power connectos recommended" which confuses me, I know what a 500 Watt PSU is but what does the last part mean? And recomendations for PSU's?


Don't go cheap. Get a top quality brand like Corsair, Seasonic, Antec, Thermaltake, or OCZ.



And the MOBO, this has me most frustrated. I have been trying to find the right one and its not going well. Looked at some ASUS, but reviews say customer support is worse than horrible. And another thing is almost all the MOBOS have a great deal of reviews that complain of the product being DOA or getting boot loops, either right away or a few weeks later. Those are things I really dont want to deal with. Ideas on a MOBO?


Just like the psu, don't go cheapo. Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI are all good.


I may not get a CD/DVD drive atm. I Have to wait and see how the money goes.

These only run about $20 you know.



I will need a HDD, I wont be doing anything that needs huge storage, I want to get a decent one but at a good price, I can always upgrade later. Suggestions on a good one?
I like the Western Digital Black drives. The Samsung F3 is good, but they were just bought by Seagate, so I'm not sure how that will all shake out.



OS, I am going to go with Windows 7. However not sure whats the best way to go. Home, Pro, Ulti? As always cheaper the better :)

I may be missing something but that is all I have so far! Thanks everyone for taking the time to read this!!

Bryon

Windows 7 Professional is all you should need. Be sure to get the 64-bit version.
What do you think?

[Bryon]

Blah, wrote a long reply and it didnt post.. so here we go again lol.

So GPU looks good unless someone else knows a better one/reason this one is bad.

I know 16gb Ram in overkill but with a $40 difference I may as well go with 16gb ( Is that a decent brand? Is one of those better? )

Im still a bit confused on what PSU to get, so do I need a 500w or a 750w??

What is considered "not cheap" for a MOBO? Anyone have any suggestions to a good board that would work with my build?

Think I should go with a 120gb SSD like mentioned a few times in the forums? If so are any better than another?

I am running 7Home on my junky laptop right now, So I will have to compare Pro and Home and see if the price is worth it.

On a sort of related note I have a $50 Mac/Apple Store Gift Card I will never use and the cash sure would help with the build, would anyone want to swap if you use the Mac/Apple Store alot? I also have $100 google adwords credit but I dont think people even use that anymore. ( Sorry of you are not allowed to ask this, I am just looking for ways to get extra cash for the build )

Bryon

[zburns]

Hey Bryon, saw the note. Glad to help anyway I can. I was actually reading thru all of the posts and do have a couple of comments.

Your quote as follows:
For the PSU I dont have a clue, for the GPU I want they say "500 Watt or greater power supply with two 750W 6-pin PCI Express power connectos recommended" which confuses me, I think you misread the 'two 750 watt 6 pin PCI Exp connectors' comment. The GPU card extra power connector(s) are 75 watt, not 750 watt.

I like Antec PSUs because they are mostly 'NOT modular'. On most of their models, all the cables enter the PSU enclosure and are soldered in place inside the housing to the printed circuit board or a particular component. The Antec HCG 750 watt (High Current Gamer) has two 75 watt connectors for GPU cards. At least two major reasons I would recommend this particular power supply is all the cabling going inside the housing and soldered in place; second reason is the + 12 volt rails (total of 4) (Edit)cables have gold plated terminals. High current and heat affect 'tin' plating; gold plating on a terminal should be impervious to corosion caused by combination of heat (from high current) and any sparking (lets hope for none!). The gold plated terminals 'theoretically' assure you of consistent performance over a number of years.

For motherboards stick with Asus, MCI or Gigabyte. I have an Asus board going on 4 years old and never a problem. Gigabyte's technical customer service by phone in California, I have found to be excellent when I have called to help 'forum builders'. No contact with Asus or MCI for tech help, so no comment on them.

I am not a fan of 'tall' heavy (relatively speaking) coolers. They are cantilevered out from the top of the cpu. Bump the computer hard on a tabletop or worse, drop the case some distance (even inches ??) and the 'cantilevered effect' puts a lot of force on the cpu and the motherboard. Liquid cooling makes far more sense to me.

EDIT: Your RAM needs to be 'known' to be compatible with your mobo by the mobo mfg.., so you have to pick your mobo before you 'match' up your RAM to the mobo (QVL means Qualified Vendors List) . Once you choose a mobo, you can go to the mobo mfg's webpage and find a QVL listing of compatible RAM. The Corsair RAM will probably be on it, but it is best to know the mobo first and then confirm the RAM.

[zburns]

Another thought on the tall fin type air coolers. There are a lot of 'fins'; they accumulate a 'lot' of dust, and, eventually, you 'blow' the dust out with a can of compressed air. So where does that dust go? The can with compressed air generally has a plastic tube snout about 6 inches long; the thin snout helps to direct air directly at one layer of the 'fins'. But the 6" thin snout plus the 'mass' of the comp air can 'limits' your ability to position the snout and can in such a way as to direct the air away from other computer components. So the dust is blown, to some degree, into the computer case and then you have to blow the case out 'throughly'. This method works ok to a minimally desirable level, but essentially it is imperfect compared to a closed system of liquid cooling wherein, there is no dust accumulation at the cpu, per se. Dust accumulation from liquid cooling, generally, will occur at the rear case fan where the cooling for the liquid in the 'liquid cooler system occurs'.

To clean out the rear case fan area with the 'heat' portion of the liquid cooling system installed there, I would think it might be best to actually remove the entire assembly from the rear of the case, get it out into the air, shield the case opening with cardboard or thick paper, and then blow the 'cooler' portion of the 'liquid cooler system' out from that point. The 'cooling hoses' from the cpu area to the rear fan area should be long enough to allow the fan/cooling assembly at the rear to be 'removed' at the rear and positioned outside the case while still connected to the cpu heatsink.

The liquid cooler system in most cases will cool to a lower temp than the fin type coolers. For myself, I am convinced that the liquid cooling has most of the advantage, but with one major disadvantage and that is the possibility of 'leaking'. But the manufacturer of the liquid system should publish a 'procedure' that essentially eliminates 'leaking' as a hazard as long as their recommendations (the mfg) are followed.

[Bryon]

I heard 6 pin are all standard 150W is that true? I also contacted NewEgg and they said they would look into the typo.

Hmm, I don't have a ton of time to post at the moment so I will have to get back to you on the MOBO. I was thinking about water cooling but I have never even seen it before so I dont know if it would be a good idea.

I will wait on the RAM until I have picked out the mobo then =]

Bryon

[zburns]

I heard 6 pin are all standard 150W is that true? Each 6 pin aux connector on the video card can receive a cable from the psu with a matching 6 pin female plug that will output to the video card 6 pin connector a max of 75 watts in a non OC mode.

HD 6950 has two 6 pin aux power connectors. These connectors will accept a 'oriented 6 pin plug' from the psu and the max wattage per connector is 75 watts. The PCI Express 2.0 x16 slot that the HD 6950 plugs into on the motherboard will output 75 watts maximum (some additional considerations spelled out later). Total power that the HD 6950 can receive in non OC mode is 3 x 75 watts or 225 watts total (75 watts from the mobo pci slot, 75 watts from each of the two 6 pin connectors ) All this in a non OC mode.

However, if the video card has one 6 pin aux power connector and one 8 pin aux power connector, things change. The pci slot still provides 75 watts max, the 6 pin power connector gets 75 watts via a matching 6 pin psu cable and the 8 pin power connector gets 150 watts max via a matching 8 pin psu cable, making a 'grand total of 300 watts for the three power sources that provide power'. All this in a non OC mode.

Go to this link and scroll downward, until you see PCI slots data, here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express

Note: When you look this stuff up, you find that the PCI slot for the card will ouput 75 watts; however, in an overclock mode, the 75 watts must remain the same and not ever exceed 75 watts. This power is drawn from the same circuits on the mobo that feed the cpu and other critical circuits. The folks that write the specification do not want the power drain on the slot 'to ever exceed 75 watts' -- a no excuses kind of thing -- but it is unclear whether this rule is obeyed or not. It would be possible to design a video card with some of the circuits that would not increase power from the pci mobo slot during OCing -- but if that were being done, I think the folks that make video cards would talk about it and it would be more of a 'common knowledge kind of thing'.

So, theoretically, the PCI slot watt output is fixed max at 75 watts. The 6 pin or 8 pin additional connectors can furnish more than 75 and 150 watts in an OCing mode, thereby, allowing 'good results' in OC mode. If the wattage on the 6 pin and 8 pin connectors does not go up, OCing would not work.

[Bryon]

Wow so much info! Everyone here is awesome!

The PSU "Antec HCG 750 watt" I looked and it looks really good, so along with the info you gave me I think that will be the one I am going to get. 750W should be enough for my rig right?

On the subject of air vs liquid cooled I think you have convinced me to go with liquid. Do you have any for a decent price that work well? I do not plan on OC at the moment, however the need may come up with it needs a boost. I don't know how to do it nor do I know much about it however so I would be slow to doing it.

The case I am going to get, the COOLER MASTER HAF 922, looks like it supports liquid cooling, so I should be all set with that!

So far I have the:
CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz
GPU: Radeon HD 6950
Case: COOLER MASTER HAF 922
PSU: Antec HCG 750 watt (High Current Gamer)

I still need the:
MOBO ( Biggest problem so far )
RAM ( Should be an easy pick after the MOBO )
Optical Drive ( Dont plan on using it much so I will just grab a cheap one. ( Sata not IDE right? ) )
HD ( Debating if I should go with a SSD, I don't think I will need a ton of room, however you never know. )

So I know the main 3 brands of MOBO's to pick from, but there are just so many with alot of different features, kinda overwhelming.

Bryon

[RickyTick]

This is an excellent cooler and the price is right.
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=59432&vpn=CWCH60&manufacture=Corsair&promoid=1314

For a motherboard, you should be looking at a Z68 or P67.

[ARchamps]

It's overwhelming for sure. I would recommend a Z68 motherboard. It's newer and it has video outputs to utilize on-board video (P67 does not) and has SSD caching. In addition, Z68 boards will have support for IvyBridge processors and PCIe 3.0, so you would be set going forward.

If you plan to have a lot of hard drives or need 2 ethernet ports etc, you should go for the higher end boards. SATA3 ports are faster ports and used by higher speed HDDs and SSDs -- so if you plan to get a SSD make sure you have enough SATA3 ports. The ASUS P8Z68-V Pro is a good option. If you want a board with best overclock potiential, check out the Maximus/Rampage series from ASUS. RAM is pretty easy choice. Just get something with 1600 Mhz and you should be set. Common brands are G.Skill, Corsair, Kingston, Cruicial, and Patriot.

For storage, keep in mind that HDD prices are inflated right now due to the Thailand flood. I bought a 1TB hard drive 2 months ago for $60 and it now sells for $150. SSD prices have come down and reliability and stability have increased. You could grab a 120GB SSD and buy a normal Hard Drive for storage when you need it (hopefully prices come down by then).

Good luck!

[zburns]

Byron: Motherboards !!!

You seem to be researching everything and you indicate mobos are 'the most confusing' which really means that there are two 'many features', etc. to consider. Here is my suggestion on how to approach the topic. Below is a list of 'links' to various web sites or pages which will help you compare features. The first listing is a Gigabyte link which is very unique in appearance and is for the Z-68 chipset in Gbyte mobos -- at least 20 choices. Asus and MCI will have a number of choices also. Probably all mfgs break down their choices into budget models, mid range models and high end models -- so this gives you a price category to concentrate within. Same theory applies to the other mfgs.

The next four links are for Intel chipsets P-67 (first two intel links) and Z-68 (next two intel links). These links give you a block diagram for the configuration of each chipset and, inherently, outline the features of each chipset.

The last two links are Google pages showing one Google page for Z-68 reviews and then a Google page for P-67 reviews. For both chipsets there is a full review by Guru of 3D; this site may be consistantly be the best computer review site on the net. But the others are certainly worth reading. When you look at any of these reviews, there is only a certain amount of information you are interested in -- not the whole review -- just depends on your particular interests and the way you approach the site. You may play 'negative' by looking for 'what kills it rather than what makes it best or great', etc.. A good review has a lot of interesting technical points, plus and minus, in the earlier sections of the reviews. The second half of most reviews is 'performance' charts, etc., which may be of interest. Again the Intel pages may be the easiest to 'glean differences or comparisons'.

Here are the links:
1. Gbyte: http://gigabyte.com/MicroSite/279/images/mb-z68-max-cpu.html

2.P-67: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/chipsets/mainstream-chipsets/p67-express-chipset.html

2A. P-67: http://ark.intel.com/products/chipsets/52771

3. Z-68: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/chipsets/mainstream-chipsets/z68-express-chipset.html

3A. Z- 68: http://ark.intel.com/products/chipsets/52771

4. Reviews: Z-68 http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS462US462&q=Z-68+chipset+reviews

5. Reviews: P-67 http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-sabertooth-p67-tuf-review/

[Bryon]

I looked at the H60 on youtube and it looks like something I could do. If I have another fan a push/pull configuration as I think its called would be nice. I know the H80 is a bit more expensive and it seem's to do the same thing so unless you guys think it is better I will go with the H60.

Thanks for all the great info on motherboards. I am going to go with the Z68. I noticed some are 1333Mhz and 1600Mhz as well as 2133Mhz. The Ram I am currently looking at is 1600Mhz. Does this mean I HAVE to get at least a mobo that has DDR3 1600? For example im narrowing the search at the moment and this is what im at:

Memory Standard
DDR3 1333 (12)
DDR3 1600 (29)
DDR3 2133 (10)

If I pick a board with DDR3 1333, 1600Mhz will still be able to run correct? It just wont be able to run to its potential. So if Im going for 1600 Ram, then I should get a board with 1600Mhz? I know it makes sense and seem's like a dumb question I just wanted to make sure my logic was correct.

Bryon

[Bryon]

Looks like I am going with a Black and Red Theme which should look awesome, my above question still stands, however I have been looking at this board:
"ASUS Maximus IV Gene-Z LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard"
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=13-131-759&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&Pagesize=10&PurchaseMark=&SelectedRating=-1&VideoOnlyMark=False&VendorMark=&IsFeedbackTab=true&Page=2
A bit more than I was hoping to pay, but you get what you pay for I guess.

I wish HIS or someone else made the "Radeon HD 6950" in a red a back color. The one I plan on getting is baby blue'ish. Looks doesnt matter a ton but... still would look nicer. lol

So what do you think of that Mobo? Anyone know of a GPU that is as good as that one and red + black?

Bryon

[zburns]

Hey Bryon, I apologize for this late reply; I have had a lot of malware on my computer since Dec 22 and I have been concentrating on getting to know my two virus/malware packages better -- trying to find the pattern.

The Asus mobo above should be fine; some comments tho! Because of the Micro ATX form factor, you are limited on the pci slots which I am sure you know. There is a post on the reviews on Newegg, maybe page 2, where the owner references his 'large' cooler (fin type) sitting on top of the pci x 16 slot area, interference with video card, etc,-- whatever the comment is, it is on the newegg reviews. There is another comment (positive) on the use of the H100 cooler vs the H60 -- here again it is in the newegg reviews. I will look again in the morning and edit this post if I am giving you false references for the 'newegg comments'. RAM memory DDR3 1600 should work ok since the mobo supports that freq w/o any overclock.

One thing you need to figure out is what the relative cooling between the H60, the H80 and the H100 is -- I have been meaning to look at it but no time yet. You are talking about using the H60; you need to know how well the cooling of a i7 2600 goes when using the H60; you may need the H80 as a compromise; the H100 may be more than you need -- I think the cooling capability still needs to be looked at.

[Bryon]

Yes I very much dislike the Micro ATX form factor. I am going to try and find one in ATX. I am also going to look up and compare the H60 - H80 - H100

I do no plan on OC yet, however doing graphic intensive games im sure it is going to generate a large amount of heat. If I wanted to do a push Pull on the rad (For the H100) I would need 4 fans though.. Plus the fans for other areas..

I am working on the Malware problem with the site ATM so I don't have much time to do research tonight, I look forward to your reply tomorrow =]

Edit:
http://c1.neweggimages.com/BizIntell/item/35/181/35-181-015/corsair-hydro-series-chart.jpg

Bryon

[zburns]

Hey Byron,

The bad Malware problem surfaced as a major problem at the point we were discussing H100 cooler vs the H80 and H60. So I was 'posting' to ask you where are you on the build and have you finished up the parts list, ordered it all, etc.. Finished the build already??

I did go check your Micro ATX mobo for the number of Motherboard 'onboard' USB male connectors; here is the spec on your micro mobo choice from the Newegg spec or 'Details' as they call it: '2 x USB 3.0 + 4 x USB 2.0 for onboard USB connections'. I bring it up because it is a feature that all builders should be sure to look at. If the mobo only has 2 onboard USB connectors, then more than likely the front panel USB ports tie these totally, leaving nothing for any internal device (card reader, ex) with a required USB 2.0 internal board connector.

So any new builder should seriously consider a minimum of four USB 2.0 connectors plus several USB 3.0 on board connectors in addition.

My point in bringing this up is that it is an important specification for us to recommend as well as the new builder should be aware that 'any USB ports on the case' may tie up 'internal onboard connectors' and therefore 'additional onboard connectors' are necessary. Hate to be repetative but I want to get the point accross!!

Said Differently: New members only, or anyone reading this who does not know 'what I mean by onboard connectors', I am referring to multi pin male pin connectors mounted to the motherboard (circuit board). These are called 'onboard USB connectors' for what I am referring too. A computer case front panel will have two USB 2.0 plugs which will use up two of the 'motherboard on board male USB connectors'. An 8 pin cable connects these 'two onboard USB mobo connectors' to the two front panel USB female USB ports. The motherboard therefore needs additional USB 2.0 'onboard connectors' to handle any 'inside the case device' that needs its input signals to come from a internal USB mobo connection.

[Bryon]

Because of the problem the forums had, I put everything aboutthe build on hold. I am still looking at parts, mostly the motherboard. I don't have a ton of money so I am really trying to get this build right.

Mostly I am still looking at mobo's. I know it is very important and it is something I should not make cuts on. $200 seem's alot for a mobo, but I don't really like the micro form factor. So I am still looking for a reliable board that isnt micro.

I will look for something that has more than 2 internal usb connectors. Feel free to recommend something that you think is good!!

I may not have enough for my build, but if I end up not I can always downgrade a part till I get some money. For now I am getting what I want, and if its more than I have I will have to take another look.

Bryon

[ARchamps]

I don't think you need to spend $200 on a Mobo. Check out the one I have. It's about $160 and there are usually rebates.

[zburns]

Hey Byron,
Sorry to be so late responding to your earlier post. The following are two links I posted a few days ago on 'DrivetheGreens' post on his proposed new build. These links are about the i7-3820(k) cpu ($285) soon to be released. The first of the links is an excellent review and provides a lot of good information. It also gets into an interesting discussion on motherboard requirements for the i7 3820. It really is a good, maybe, great review in the quality of the detail the writer goes into.

The other review is by ANANDTECH, likewise good. They are both long; you will probably want to read them several times to get the full impact. I will comment again in several days and be more specific.

Here are the links: http://pcper.com/reviews/Processors/Intel-Core-i7-3820-Processor-Review-Quad-Core-Sandy-Bridge-E-under-300

Anandtech link: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5276/intel-core-i7-3820-review-285-quadcore-sandy-bridge-e

[Bryon]

Thanks,

I have done tons of research on: Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz

So it will be interesting to read up on that one!

Bryon M

[ARchamps]

Keep in mind that the SB-E processors run on a new chipset/socket (2011/X79). The price range for those mobo's are >$300!

[Bryon]

Hey, I have been looking at some stuff and I am going to buy the case a bit in advance to my build seeing as I ran check it for any faulty parts and RMA if needed without having the rest of the build.

I decided to go a bit different;

I am going to go with the HAF 922 because its a big nice looking case that from what I can tell can handle the Corsair H100. Can someone confirm this? If I wanted to do a push-pull will they both fit inside or will I have to mount a push or a pull on top outside the case? If so is this possible? What would be required.

And the last question is this;

This HAF 922; http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119197

shows 1000+ reviews so im confident in getting it, however I dont want red, I want blue.

So is this; http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119224

Would that be the EXACT same thing just blue??

Thanks :)

Bryon

[RickyTick]

Yeah, they're the same. Just different colored LED's. Very nice case too.

[Bryon]

Alright awesome!! That is the case I am going with then. Anyone have any information on that case with the H100 though?

Bryon

[zburns]

Hey Byron,

Before you order the case, I think you need to be sure the H100 dual 120mm fans mounted to the 240 mm radiator will physically go into the top of the Haf 922. What I am questioning is not the length and width of these items, but the combined thickness and any possibility of interference with the motherboard.

The radiator and fans, I assume will be mounted along the centerline of the case top. That may put the fan/radiator combo far enough out from the side panel that the mobo mounts on, so that there is plenty of clearance to the motherboard.

I looked at the case 'manual' on line. I just do not see any dimensions that one can make calculations from. I think you are ok, but I cannot prove it. If the thickness of the radiator and fans combined overlap the motherboard, you also should know what components and their height are mounted along the top edge of the motherboard. If you know the location of the case mounting holes for the mobo, that will tell you if the fan/radiator combo overlap the mobo or not.

[Bryon]

Now that I am reading about the H100 more I hear it is not much different than the H80. Which is thicker anyway. So I will be going with the H80 (Yes.. Final answer lol) So Now I am readin up on how to do a P/P in the Haf 922 with the H80. I really want to at least order the case in the morning (Monday) So lets hope I can confirm this..

The fans I will be using are the: COUGAR CF-V12HP Vortex

Bryon

[zburns]

The fans for the H80 and H100 come with the cooler kits, I believe. Here is my concern and why I wrote the post. The Haf 922 case was designed and on the market before the Corsair H80 and H100. When the Haf 922 case was designed - then tooled for manufacturing - it was only a fan going under the top mesh grill. Now it is the fan plus the radiator -- so the thickness dimension of the combination has increased, which tends to mean the 'fan plus radiator' combined thickness will cause the top portion of the motherboard to be 'somewhat covered up' -- probably not a real problem -- but it would be best to know that before you have the components sitting before you, and, on assembly, you find a problem.

Note: 'then tooled for manufacturing' -- means tooling is made to 'stamp' out parts - a very expensive process and one 'not willingly accepted' by the manufacturer because of the cost (to make the tooling originally and then remake the tooling to accomodate the added thickness dimension).

Again, things will probably work out fine because the width of the fans /radiator combo is a good deal smaller than the case width, thereby, leaving 'clearance' between the mobo and fan/radiator at the top.

This entire post assumes the fan/radiator for the H100 goes at the top. If you use the H80, it can be installed at the rear top fan 'hole'.

Your Quote:
Which is thicker anyway Both the H 100 and the H80 should be either the same thickness or very close. It is the fact that the 'radiator' is an additional 'thickness' element added to the fan thickness; and this causes the potential slight overhang (over the top edge of the mobo) of the H100 double fan / longer radiator if mounted to the inside top of the Haf 922 case

[Bryon]

Going to go with this ram: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=20-233-198&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&Pagesize=10&PurchaseMark=&SelectedRating=-1&VideoOnlyMark=False&VendorMark=&IsFeedbackTab=true&Page=5#scrollFullInfo

Needed something low profile.

The other change is the case will be the NZXT Phantom White with the H100 + i5 2500k

Because im only doing gaming I was told its not worth the extra $100 to get the i7 2600k

Now I just need to settle on a mobo!!

Bryon

[ARchamps]

If you have the budget, go for the newer Z68. You will get the video outputs to utilize your onboard video from your CPU should you ever have a problem with your GPU. I learned this the hard way, as a month ago I was without a video card for a week. Because I have a P67 board, I couldn't use my PC for about a week! If not, P67 is virtually the same minus the video inputs and SSD caching.

There are a lot of reviews on the net, where they compare the major mobo manufactures so you can see which one has more features for the $$ and perform better etc.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[Bryon]

Well with the help from your post I landed on this on: GIGABYTE GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128498

Looks like a good board, will go great with the Black NZXT Phantom.

Only thing that worries me is alot of reviews on it having boot cycle issues and failing(I would def get the 2 year extended warrenty on it)

How can I see if this ram: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233197
Works with that Mobo?

Updated build so far:

Case: Black NZXT Phantom - Full Tower Case
Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3
Ram: Black LP CORSAIR Vengeance 16GB, DDR3 1600
Optical Drive: ASUS 24X DVD Burner

Need to do a final pick on a GPU.

I will have a large music collection, so should I get a small SSD (120GB?) for system files and other stuff I install and then get a 1TB Sata or something for music?

Missing anything?

Bryon

[zburns]

Hi Byron,

I went thru the motherboards by Asus and Gigabyte for the Z68 chipset. Both companies had a decent number of Z68 boards, but they both had already discontinued or 'not stocked' a number of their Z68 boards. Here is a breakdown from the Newegg site by the board manufacturer's product number (cat #), the percentage of purchasers that gave a particular board a '5 Egg' rating, and the price for each board. Results are interesting and subject to only several interpretations.

Here is Asus: Maximus IV Extreme-Z 65% $ 339; P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 67% $ 269; P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3 63% $ 204; P8Z68-V/GEN3 56% $ 179; P8Z68-M PRO 45% $ 124; P8Z68-V LX 46% $ 124 .

Here is Gigabyte: GA-Z68M-D2H 74% $114; GA-Z68A-D3H-B3 53% $ 129; GA-Z68MX-UD2H-B3 38% $ 149; GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 46% $ 159; GA-Z68XP-UD3 42% $ 144; GA-Z68XP-UD3P 55% $189; GA-Z68XP-UD4 56% $ 209;
GA-Z68XP-UD3-iSSD $239 40%.

Draw your own conclusions as to what the numbers mean. Here are mine and I do not want to offend any reader by these comments: If instead, this was a hard drive, DVD read/write/player, video card, even RAM the percentages would be higher. The motherboard is just more vulnerable to damage by the 'builder' (and damage unintentionally by the builder). Probably Newegg gets some returns where the mobo is perfectly ok.

The more expensive the board, the higher the percent rating given by the builder, and/or, the more experienced the purchaser (and maybe it is not his first build). This statement more true for Asus than Gigabyte. One anomoly is the Gigabyte
GA-Z68M-D2H board with a rating of 74% and a very low price of $114 -- maybe this is a high volumn board for Gigabyte which would also help account for the higher percent.

My point in pulling this data and posting it is this: All the percentages are low. The motherboard is one of the most vulnerable components. The percentages probably reflect the fact that many new builders just 'dive in' without the benefits that I think Rob's book and this forum offers -- not trying to promote the forum or the book -- just saying the obvious.

Being able to take advantage of Rob's book on Building a Super PC and this forum is a big help to builders. The book and the forum provide education, builds confidence in the new builder and, last, helps the builder avoid mistakes!

I would also venture this opinion. Circuit wise it is probably best to purchase in the mid or high range for any component. In circuit design, there are 'lower cost ways' as well as 'higher cost ways' to design good circuits -- they all work. A higher cost design is done for a reason; does not imply that a lower cost product is somehow 'a poorer product'. A good manufacturer will not take a chance on 'damage to reputation' knowingly, EVER !!

[ARchamps]

The RAM should work. To be sure, check the QVL list on the Mobo's site. Chances are, it may not be there because they don't really update it. According to Corsair's Compatibility Checker (http://www.corsair.com/learn_n_explore/), your mobo is listed.

For the SSD, 120GB is a good size. You should be able to fit the OS, your applications and a few games. Files like music, movies etc should be on the 1TB. For the GPU, how much do you want to spend? 560 Ti is a good option and you can SLI them later on.

I may have missed this in an earlier post, but have you selected a PSU?

[Bryon]

Wow zburns! Thanks for that very detailed post. I feel abit better about the mobo now. I can always RMA if it doesnt work. Would you say this mobo is at least in the mid range?

Thanks for checking that ARChamps, I will keep that link handy for next time.

For my GPU I was thinking about the: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161372

the 560 Ti looks nice, it is only 1gb memory and the one above is 2gb for only $20 more. I dont know how it compares in other ways, the 560 Ti seems to have some video artifact and tearing issues.

Thoughts?

I have not decided on a PSU yet. Black would be nice ( Doesnt matter that much I guess ) but I have no idea how many watts I would need to power my rig =\

Bryon

[ARchamps]

6950 is a good GPU... nice choice.

For PSU, see this calculator (http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp)to estimate how much power you need. With your current set up so far, I think 650W should be sufficient. If you SLI or Crossfire, then 750-850W might be needed. Also make sure they have good efficiency. I have personally had good experiences with both Corsair and Seasonic. XFX, Antec and OCZ are also highly regarded. Check JohhnyGuru(sp)'s review site for great breakdowns on PSUs.

[zburns]

Hi Byron,

Power supplies. There are three Antec choices: Earthwatts Platinum Series EA-650 650 watts; High Current Gamer HCG-620 620 watts; High Current Pro HCP-750 750 watts.

Here is the link to the Antec Products page: http://www.antec.com/Believe_it/product.php . Look under Products, then Power Supplies, then on the right a list of the various models. It is a little annoying to use this page - you must have a 'deft mouse hand'.

Comments: Many power supplies today are modular which means the cables 'plug' into the back of the case. This is inherently a bad idea, because one bad connection during the life of the unit can render the psu unusable. These three Antec psus are 'hard wired' meaning the cables go direct into the housing and are 'hard wired' to their connection point. The three names I gave you at the beginning will get you to the Newegg page so you can see the specs and the prices.

The Antec Products page I first mentioned is very thorough in describing each of the psus. Two of the Antec supplies have four +12 volt rails, one has only a single +12 volt rail. All the name brand psus will offer at least four separate types of 'protection' -- you will see what I refer too. I am in my fifth year with my Antec psu -- never a hint of a problem. Any PSUs with a single +12 volt output that can deliver 40 amps or even more, are not safe in my opinion, but there must be a rationale that says they are safe and the 'Electrical Testing Labs' allow it.

The other power supplies that use modular plug in cables obviously will work and are probably cheaper.

The AMD 'calculator' for your chosen GPU card called out for 500 watts for the single card. I always add at least 100 watts plus to that number, therefore, 650 watts (one of the Antec's is 620 watts).

If you ever decide to go to SLI configuration, you probably will have to replace the psu in addition to getting an additional card. Ask any questions. The PSU performance and quality is absolutely mandatory to a long term succesful build. So please pick out a name brand even if you must pay more.

[Bryon]

You guys are all amazing, helping me out with my build and answering all my annoying questions. Even after I finish my build I will be sticking around long after to learn and contribute what I have learned to other new builders!

So now onto the PSU. After going to the link you provided and looking through the PSU's I came to this one: Antec High Current Gamer Series HCG-750 750W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371049&Tpk=HCG-750) - The Color scheme is awesome, I went with the 750W just ot be sure I didnt run into any power issues. The question I did have was I see all this talk about +12 volt rails. What in the world are these. I am doing some research on it but it still isnt clicking. How do I know if a power supply has all the connectors I need for my build. I know I need some that hook to the top of the GPU. So what are your thoughts on this PSU, think it will work ok for my rig?

Bryon

[RickyTick]

I think that's an excellent psu. And to be honest, any new psu from a top vendor is going to have all the connectors you need and then some.

[zburns]

The ATX specification applies to all 'parts of' or 'components' of the computer. Everything inside the case, including the case, all circuit boards, etc., is designed to 'minimally' meet the ATX standard. The ATX standard is 'a minimum set of rules that manufacturers must meet to use the words 'meets ATX standards' -- most manufacturers, probably 'exceed the ATX standards in many or a number of ways, and, this is good.

The ATX Std applies to a minimum number of connectors on the ends of the PSU cabling; manufacturers can exceed the minimum. There is an organization of a large number of manufacturers who 'band together' to write and agree upon the ATX standard. In addition, they do the same for other standards that relate to other non-ATX products they manufacture.

Ricky's statement above is 100 % true. Notice he uses the words 'top vendor'. The 'top vendors' have overhead but because of their overhead, they design 'top products'.

There are a lot of manufacturers in the 'let's build a computer' business; it is amazing how well all the components from various manufacturers fit together. We all have the ATX standard and the manufacturers group to thank for that.

----------------
I am going to 'mix' topics here. Byron's question is 'what does +12volt rails mean'. The PSU puts out a number of different voltages and polarities. The +12 volt rail or 'rails (plural) applies to all ATX computers. Your PSU has a number of different voltages that are required to run your ATX computer. The main and most used voltage (meaning the highest dc current draw - lots of 'amps') is +12 volts. The motherboard, all PCI plug in cards including GPU cards, most everthing the 'connecting cables from the psu' connect with such as hard drives, dvd burner, USB devices, etc. runs on +5v or +12 volts.

There are other voltages from the psu required for other reasons, but the amount of 'power' these voltages supply is very minimal. The +12 volt supply is huge in terms of ampere output.

'Rails' is a substitute term for 'wire', like the +12 volt 'wire'. It is more imposing to 'say +12 volt rail'. So you see PSUs with 'a +12 volt rail (singular) or +12 volt rails (plural). A single +12 volt rail in a PSU for very high energy gaming could deliver between 50 and 100 amperes. It is simpler and cheaper to build a psu with just one high ampere +12 volt rail than to build a psu with 'four +12 volt rails, each with smaller ampere outputs'.

How do we know that a +12 volt rail with 50 to 100 amps is safe to be around. It is a valid question and has yet to cause any substantive discussion within the 'community of manufacturers and users'. Agencies such as UL do test computer components; the single +12 volt rail design with high amp output apparently 'passes muster' with the safety agencies. But the explanations as to why they are safe should be published thruout a wide 'community of users'.

[ARchamps]

Zburns at it again with a very informative post! I'll just add on. My brother's PSU died last week and I needed to buy a replacement for him. He has an old motherboard (I can't even identify it) with a P4 chip. I bought a Corsair CX600 (on sale!) and it had the connectors needed - 20+4 pin main connection and the 4+2 (6pin 12V) connector. This just goes to show there is no way to get the wrong type of PSU -- especially for newer components!

I'm not well versed on PSUs, but here is something I came across whic hyou should be aware of (although will likely not affect you anyway). Your GPU will have a requirement on how much power it will require. They will usually state they require XX watts and XX amps on a 12V rail. You will likely not run into this problem as it is really only a concern for lower end and OEM PSUs OR if you throw 3 or 4 GPUs into your system lol. Here is a link with good general information (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply_unit_(computer)). I learned a little something reading this myself!

Edit --> Rumour that Mobo prices may be increasing end of Q1 (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Motherboard-Gigabyte-Shanghai-Shenzhen-LGA-1155,14620.html)

[zburns]

AR,
Your GPU will have a requirement on how much power it will require. They will usually state they require XX watts and XX amps on a 12V rail.

Double check your data but I think what the GPU manufacturers normally show is the required or recommended 'minimum system wattage' for the gpu plus everything else. Specifying the GPU wattage only, means the user has to figure out 'the wattage of everything but the GPU'. What the GPU manufacturers do is go ahead and add their GPU watts to 'a generous value of assumed wattage for the mobo, cpu, fans, etc. -- this system has some error in it but nothing 'errorwise like the alternative'. The alternative being the user having to figure out all the wattage 'over and above the GPU wattage' -- which will not work and will result in failed systems.

Take the 'system wattage' recommended by the GPU mfg and add 100 watts plus for safety factor (although they have probably done this already). There is nothing wrong with running a PSU at less than full load. Below 40% of full load is sort of the bottom. 60 to 70 percent of full load is a good range.

If you are dealing with AMD, look for a sub title of 'System Requirements'.

With Evga, look at this example for the GTX 580:
Requirements
Minimum of a 600 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 42 Amps.)
------------------------------
'Requirements' is a 'Heading' within the Spec Page. Evga clearly states for the GTX 580--Minimum wattage of 600 watts for the psu, and, a +12 volt current rating of 42 amps (the +12 volt current rating includes the graphics card amps plus anything else requiring +12 volts -- the System Requirements is an educated guess by Evga as to the total watts for +12 volts based on the GPU card usage plus everything else.

[Bryon]

It is simpler and cheaper to build a psu with just one high ampere +12 volt rail than to build a psu with 'four +12 volt rails, each with smaller ampere outputs'.

The power supply I am looking at is a 4 rail PSU. So are you saying its better to get a PSU with only one rail?

Bryon

[zburns]

You have 4 rails @ 40 amps each. To run one video card you will need only one rail plus full use of both of the gpu 6 pin auxiliary connectors. The reason why 4 rails is better than one rail is that your 'four protection circuits' trip into action at a lower level of current if the rail is overloaded beyond 53 amps (trip point). The System Requirement from RADEON for your card is maximum 75 watts via the PCIe x 16 slot in the mobo, and, 75 watts from each of the two 6 pin 'auxillary connectors' for a GPU card total watts requirement of three times 75 watts or 225 watts. Right now, I do not think that includes overclocked, so in a overclocked situation, the 225 watts will go up some small to medium percentage. Your system with one gpu card will not have enough current (amps) draw to even require a total of 750 watts.

Okay so we have 225 watts for the GPU CARD. Your cpu will use +12 volts also. Its TDP is around 100 watts (I will correct this later + or -). Motherboard takes some wattage, Hard drive likewise, say 75 watts, RAM 150 watts for all of the rest of the small and medium watt items. So our total is 225 plus 100 plus 75 plus 150 is 550 watts. If you do hard gaming and overclock, the GPU card total watts will rise as well as will the cpu total max watts -- worse case about 100 more watts ( that's a guess). So you are talking 550 watts to 650 when overclocking. Note: The process I just described is correct, some of the numbers for wattage are guess work -- I will go back and get actual numbers for your components that will fine tune it. But I cannot do it quickly right now.

Back to the 4 rails. Each rail is protected by 4 types of protection (look at the specs). Your max current each rail, is 40 amps (but you will never have each rail running 40 amps at the same time). If you had one rail only, the maximum amperes would be around 65 amps for a 750 watt supply. But the trip point for the protection circuits would be about 85 amps. The benefit of the 4 rails is to reduce the maximum current in each rail so that the safety trip point where the PSU will shut down is much lower that it would be in one rail only.
------
Go ahead and ask any questions. I will clean this up regards actual numbers - get rid of any guesses, etc.. But the process for thinking it thru is correct. Nothing wrong with the psu you picked out -- rather a good choice.

It is a 'bad' choice to use a PSU with one rail only!! Left this out -- Your cables from the psu have 4 pin molex connectors and for +12 volts, there will be at least three or four separate cables for +12 volts -- three or four 'rails'. The 24 pin connector will have a +12 volt set of wires as will a molex connector to feed the cpu. The mobo folks and the psu folks know how to distribute the cables and the so called 'rails' so it all works out!

[Bryon]

Wow thats all rather complicated in a way lol. So looks like the PSU will have enough to power my rig even if I decide to overclock it, and/or possibly add another card later on.

For the HD I was thinking the: Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB 7200 RPM
Its 159.99 on NewEgg right now but over the past month the prices have been dropping fast. So I will wait a bit longer to see if it falls anymore. 1TB should be all I need and I went for the (faster?) 7200RPM Drive. Last I heard Western Digital was a good brand to buy.

Or: Seagate Barracuda ST31000524AS 1TB 7200 RPM

One brand better than the other?

Bryon

[Bryon]

Out of these HD 6950's which one would be best?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100006662%20600007782&IsNodeId=1&Description=Radeon%20HD%206950&name=2GB&Order=BESTMATCH

Bryon

[RickyTick]

I really like the MSI with the Twin Frozr cooler.

[Bryon]

No more second guessing, the order for the NZXT Black Phantom and Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit - OEM were placed last night. I may have to wait a few weeks to get the money for the rest of the parts because I want to buy the rest all at once so if something doesnt work I can still RMA. I hope I have enough ^^

Bryon

[ARchamps]

Nice! Cases rarely need to be RMA'd anyway. If you can, try to purchase the mobo/gpu/psu at the same time. Those are the parts IMO that you will likely have to worry about RMA. I wouldn't worry about it though, seeing as you picked some good quality parts!

[Bryon]

Whats a good SSD to get as a boot drive? I was thinking like 128gb? Any brand that is better than another?

Bryon

[zburns]

Hey Bryon,

Here is what looks like a good website to evaluate SSDs. I read one sentence that had 'incorrect' grammar which leads me to believe it is a European site (which is irrelevant). Here is the link to the site: http://www.ssdreview.com/

Also, I wanted to ask you about your process in selecting the cpu. You had an earlier comment about 'throughly researching the i7 2600k' and then someone recommended you drop down to the i5 2500k. What I am asking did you happen to also take a long look at the i7 2700k. If not, I just suggest you take a look at this website which has benchmark testing of all three of the cpus 2700k, 2600k & 2500k.

The reason I bring up the 2700k is because it is a new release in the i7 series. Here is the link to what I think is a good review on the 2700k: http://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/zardon/intel-core-i7-2700k-review/
This reviewer for the 2700k compares it to the 2600k and the i5 2500k. The reviewer clearly 'states' that the 2700k 'replaces' the 2600k; this implies a 'lower rating in the CPU pecking order for the i5'.

---------
Here is a link to a i5 vs i7 comparison. It is written by an individual, unnamed, but he does give his credentials and they look fine, so I would tend to believe what I am reading; here is the link: http://i5-vs-i7.com/
---
According to your posts, you are in a minor 'lull' before ordering all your components. You are spending a lot of money. I do not mean to intrude upon your decision making process, rather, I would like to believe that you have read and seen all opinions of what is the best cpu to purchase. That is why I point out the i7-2700 review by KitGuru above.
-------------
If a 'new builder' spends a lot of time researching what components to buy for the build, the most certain way to get the best information is to read 'the long reviews by the best reviewers'. Best reviewers includes as many as approximately 15 reviewers. I have recently come to respect 'kitguru' because of the length and detail of his/her reviews. 'Guru of 3D' is a German reviewer, Anandtech another reviewer, all with obviously good credentials. A simple way to measure the reviewer is the length of the review and the 'your perception of the seriousness and quality of the written review'. The good reviews on the important components are very long, and, one must read them several times to grasp the important details - at least I have too.
----
The reviewer for the SSDs at the top of this post 'seems' likewise highly qualified. On the SSD's, I would tend to buy from a respected 'Memory' manufacturer but carefully look at detailed reviews thruout the decision making process.

Here is the link to 'SSD Review.com' page under 'Reviews': http://www.ssdreview.com/review/solid-state-ssd/ If you are a 'camera bug also', they review camera's (but in German), the link for camera reviews is in the lower right corner of the 'page on reviews' .

[Bryon]

I will be spending some time today going over all this info you just gave me. I was going to go with the i7 because I misunderstood them. I thought it was i7 = 7 cores, i5 = 5 cores. Silly me. I know i7 has hyperthreading but I dont really need that for what I will be using the pc for. It will be strictly gaming. So when someone suggested the i5 2500k I decided to look into it and it turns out I would save some money and it would be better for gaming. I will have good cooling so I can always OC if I need some more speed. Does that sound right? I didnt even know the i7 2700 was out yet, I just don't see a big enough improve ment or need to spend the extra money.

I will check out some SSD's and post back with what I think I will be going with. Should I make it strictly a boot drive? I would only need.. 20Gb? or should I get a 60 or 120Gb and put games on it. I dont really see how a game would benefit from an SSD. Thoughts?

Bryon

[zburns]

Thought I had better say something!!
I have been looking at SSD reviews/articles since sometime yesterday. Right now I will give you one link from August 2009 by the owner/writer of Anandtech. Here is the link: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2738 The single most feature or interest in the article, is that the author wrote a significant report on where SSDs 'stood' at a recent point in time, 2009 (about 2 yrs ago). According to the author, almost everyone in the industry wanted copies of his article about SSDs and how they tested out at that time that the piece was written. The author's conclusion was not complementary about SSD performance, hence, a mad industry scramble to correct 'actual performance' rather than 'perceived performance'.

The review in the link I provided in the last para is 27 pages long, fairly technical, and is well worth reading if you are a computer or gaming enthusiast. To really read and understand this article takes at least two to three days -- at least that is my perspective because it is mostly all new data to me. But the article does set the stage for the current technology and why the new 'stuff' is made the way it is.

I have some other links bookmarked that are more current and I will try to post them later today.

[Bryon]

Thnx! I will be sure to give that a read through. The one I am thinking about is: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=20-148-441

Not sure if that is enough for a boot drive and a few programs though.

Also, I had a question. I would be able to wait a bit on getting my GPU because the i5 2500k has: Intel HD Graphics 3000: integrated graphics?

Bryon

[zburns]

From newegg on what you selected:
the Crucial m4 offers mobile and desktop users unparalleled read and write performance at its price range, Notice they peg performance too the price. Look for other 'close' size or capacity, not to buy, but to compare prices. See how many expensive similar versions you can find. Also, compare warranties between other similar sizes (ie storage).

This is a quick comment. I will also do what I suggested you do and comment back regardless of what I find.

[Bryon]

I read that SSD link you sent me, very imformative! I just got the NZXT Black Phantom and the OS today. The case is HUGE!! I have to wait a month till my phone comes in to get the rest of my parts, not happy about that lol.

Edit: Camera Phone Pic

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg827/scaled.php?server=827&filename=downsizew.jpg&res=medium

Bryon

[zburns]

Take it out of the box so we can see it!!

I have some more links for you on good SSD info you should have. Will post them tomorrow am.

[Bryon]

Haha ok. Here are a few oh the case just sitting there doing nothing for the next month.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg33/scaled.php?server=33&filename=img0612ts.jpg&res=medium

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg4/scaled.php?server=4&filename=img0613ch.jpg&res=medium

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg189/scaled.php?server=189&filename=img0614g.jpg&res=medium

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg11/scaled.php?server=11&filename=img0615em.jpg&res=medium

Ignore the clutter. I didnt get a chance to take professional pictures =]

Bryon

[zburns]

Here are some important links to 'Reviewer sites' on SSDs. The first two that I list, I only came across this am, and read the first and last page of each one. But both posts are significant in that they were 'recently written'. What is different is the writer telling us that SSDs are 'no bed of roses' from a problem viewpoint. Basically the two articles bring the reader up to date!

Quoting from the review by 'Guru of 3D' (one of the top notch reviewers out there) is the second para on the last page: "Prices HDD versus SSD -- well my advice is simple and I'll keep repeating this in each and every SSD conclusion; you probably should stop looking at the Solid State Disk technology as if it were a traditional HDD. We will all be old and grey before the two reach the same prices or top the multiple TB volume storage the HDD offers for less money."

Here is the link to the 'Anandtech' Aug 11,2011 article or review: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4604/the-sandforce-roundup-corsair-patriot-ocz-owc-memoright-ssds-compared

Here is the link to the 'Guru of 3D' article: http://www.guru3d.com/article/crucial-m4-128gb-ssd-review/1

Both links above are about 'recent' current status of SSDs. Below I show several more links of articles in the 2011 early range which imply, 'past SSD problems, over, blue sky only ahead' -- unfortunately false promises.

It does appear that Crucial has a decent product in their M4 series, but only time will tell based on 'actual user experience'. The single one thing to look out for if you have an SSD is the dreaded 'BSOD' (blue screen of death for new readers). If BSODs start to pop up soon after or anytime after installing an SSD, it is reasonable to assume the SSD is the cause.

In my second para at the beginning of this post, read the quote and believe it. The way one looks at a 'new build' with an SSD is not the same as our collective experiences with the older builds with no SSDs. Use them but be aware that the 'problem time line' may still be with the industry for a while but hopefully a 'time line' that is 'diminishing in significance'.

On a very positive note. Regardless of a problem type experience with an SSD, I get the impression most owners are more than pleased with the much faster execution times they experience.

Note: Several other links to be posted later today!

[ARchamps]

That case actually looks better than I thought it would... nice!!

IMO, SSD's reliability has increased since they were introduced. I'd just say look for the best deal, while doing your due diligence researching. I went for the Vertex 3 on a Black Friday deal. I have not had any problems and it is super fast!

[Bryon]

Yea im really happy with the case! I don't have anything in it but looks wise its nice so far. I cant wait to order parts!!

My money comes in around March 10th. So I should be ordering the parts (If I have enough) sometime around then!

Bryon

[Bryon]

Well its getting close to the time of when I order my parts.

I won't have enough to get the full build right away, So I will just have to get what I need to make it run, so that would be (correct me if im wrong)

POwer Supply
Mobo
CPU
SSD
Ram
CD/DVD
Corsair H100

What I will get when I have the money-

Gaming Keyboard + Mouse
WD Caviar Black 1TB 7200rpm
GPU(Questions about this below)
23" Monitor
3 Extra fans for my case

---------------------

Ok so GPU question. I don't NEED the GPU right away right? I can run it off the onboard?

Also All the HD 6950's are sold out on newegg. Some deactivated. The one I'm interested in I found on TigerDirect, Is this a reliable site? Also its only a 1gb.

The link: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1241860&CatId=7005

If I am running a 20" and a 23" off that card at a highest of 1920 x 1080 res. Will 1gb be ok?

Last question, let me know what you think of that GPU btw, it has great cooling. Can I run the 23" monitor off of HDMI and the 20" on DVI? Dual screen, or will they both haveto be off the DVI.

Bryon

[Bryon]

Don't mean to double post, just bumpin this back into the new posts thing.

Bryon.

[zburns]

Look at the Gigabyte page ( http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3693#sp ), the I/O outputs each have an asterisk beside them telling you that memory is less than specified because some of the memory is for 'system memory'. Only Gbyte can answer that; suggest you call them.

Also, Tiger Direct page states 'Item Unavailable' -- you need to confirm with Gbyte that this GPU is still and will be a current model for some time, etc..

[ARchamps]

Well its getting close to the time of when I order my parts.

I won't have enough to get the full build right away, So I will just have to get what I need to make it run, so that would be (correct me if im wrong)

POwer Supply
Mobo
CPU
SSD
Ram
CD/DVD
Corsair H100

What I will get when I have the money-

Gaming Keyboard + Mouse
WD Caviar Black 1TB 7200rpm
GPU(Questions about this below)
23" Monitor
3 Extra fans for my case

---------------------

Ok so GPU question. I don't NEED the GPU right away right? I can run it off the onboard?

Also All the HD 6950's are sold out on newegg. Some deactivated. The one I'm interested in I found on TigerDirect, Is this a reliable site? Also its only a 1gb.

The link: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1241860&CatId=7005

If I am running a 20" and a 23" off that card at a highest of 1920 x 1080 res. Will 1gb be ok?

Last question, let me know what you think of that GPU btw, it has great cooling. Can I run the 23" monitor off of HDMI and the 20" on DVI? Dual screen, or will they both haveto be off the DVI.

Bryon

You can run off the motherboard for now without the GPU, since you have a Z68 chipset. Be wary about Tigerdirect and their prices. They are usually the highest in comparison to its competitors.

You should be fine with 1GB of GPU RAM. Unless you plan on going over 1920 resolution or playing BF3 on maximum settings, you should be fine.

[zburns]

Byron, your quote:
Can I run the 23" monitor off of HDMI and the 20" on DVI? Dual screen, or will they both haveto be off the DVI.

Check out this link from Amazon, read the long para of the first reviewer Rodney Gates: http://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-Radeon-DisplayPort-PCI-Express-GV-R695OC-1GD/dp/B0056GJL26/ref=cm_cmu_pg__header

[zburns]

Can I run the 23" monitor off of HDMI and the 20" on DVI? Dual screen, or will they both haveto be off the DVI.

The answer to your question, and how to do it, is in the Amazon link in my above post!!

[Bryon]

Ok thanks!! I just ordered the extra fans for my case. And tomorrow I will order the basic components(listed above) to get it running!

I will read that post and see what it says, also I guess I will have to call them about that card.

Bryon

[Bryon]

Hmm the Mobo I am ordering ( In a few hours? ) Link (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128498&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-Motherboards%20-%20Intel-_-GIGABYTE-_-13128498&AID=10440897&PID=3338496&SID=) Only seem's to have a few fan "plugs?", where you plug the fans into the mobo. Well the NZXT Phantom has the top fan controler ( 5 different controls ) and I am going to have a LOT of fans. 2 x 200mm top. 1 x 200mm side. 2 x 140mm side. 1 x 140mm back. 1 x 140mm front.
The top and the side duals are each controled by one fan controler slider. So no problem there, but how in the world am I going to plug 7 fans in a mobo with only 3 inputs??? Do they sell splitters? Would that reduce the rpm each one gets? I can't find a good guide online of how the phantom fan controler is set up.

So any suggestions / ideas? This just had me alittle worried.

Bryon

[zburns]

This is the only reference to a mobo that I found in this entire Thread, so I assume it is the one you will be using: GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3. I find 4 fan inputs, but one is the cpu fan. Do you have any technical specs on the fans in the case, specifically the voltage/current requirements for the 200 mm fans. Since you have so many fans and not enough motherboard outputs, you have several considerations. It would be smart to ask Gigabyte if they have a spec on the existing fan power outlets presently on the motherboard. (you do not necessarily want to put, for example, the three 200 mm fans on the three available mobo outlets without knowing the output capacity of the mobo outlets)

Your power supply and its 'cables with the molex connectors' may have a 'leftover' unused cable assuming the fans run on +12volts.

I would email the case manufacturer or call them and ask their solution to extra available power beyone the motherboard outlets. They surely have run into this problem before and have a solution. Solving this problem is not a big deal. Other solutions are a separate very small power supply or in a worst case solution, build one (last resort).

I would think the total power requirement for the left over fans would be a relatively small amount and that the main powersupply could easily supply it; assuming this is the case, then the wiring between the existing psu cable with the voltage and the fan cables or sockets is 'the problem to be solved'.

The above comments are general in nature. I can figure some of this out tomorrow and simplify my data above. But it does not deserve major concern. The case manufacturer has to know something helpful.

(I just now saw that little small 'Link' in blue for the mobo - my mistake)

[zburns]

The top of your case has two fans -- look inside the case and see if there are two separate fan connectors, one connector for each fan -- I assume both these fans run at the same time with the same voltage, both react to a 'temperature controlled voltage' assuming there is such circuitry -- these comments should be correct but they need to be verified. Assuming they are correct, there is no reason why the power to both fans cannot occur via 'one set of wires' coming up to the fans. Close to the fans, the one set of wires has two identical plugs, each plug meant to 'mate' with one fan's 'matching (male/female) plug. --- If these comments are correct, then the two fans 'really ACT as one fan.

The same logic above applies to the two large side fans (may or may not include the lower right side fan near the bottom of the case -- probably not -- the low right side fan is probably there to 'exit' and force 'air draw' across 'multiple hard drives installed in that area'). SO, the two large side fans have more to do with mulitple GPU cards in SLi (even 3 or 4 way SLI). As in the top fans, the two 200mm side fans may be 'mimics' of each other and can be wired in parallel.

So what I am saying, in all likehood, the two 200mm top fans and the two 200mm side fans may 'both act as one fan each' and therefore require only one 'power cable to feed them'. It is also possible that the designer with air flow and turbulance in mind, intended to allow in 'consistent low heat' cases only one of the two fans to operate. -- This means that your existing build can get buy without one of the top fans and one of the side fans.

Hard Drive Fan: You only have one hard drive, but it is one TByte, but that 'begs' the question as to whether the low right fan is needed or not -- once you are running, you can carefully put a thermometer inside the case at the hard drive and measure temps with and without the fans running. Western Digital can give you a 'very safe threshold temperature that the HD can run at for years' without harm. Whether running the fan near the Hard Drive causes more or less dust accumulation near the Hard Drive is not known.

General Comment on all the Fans: You are doing a minimal build initially. Not all the fans are necessary at this level. Even just one fan running will force air to come inside the case. I can see no logical reason for the front fan right now; you will only have a DVD in one of the top compartments. You can run a temperature test after the build is complete for that area near the DVD to see the temp differential and then decide if you need that fan operating.

What I think you need at the start is a rear fan, one top fan, one side fan. Using the logic above, do you (any other forum member also) agree or not agree. The seven fans are there to cool a half loaded, 3/4 loaded or fully loaded case. Because the case is large and therefore has pockets where 'turbulence can occur -- resulting in poor air movement' -- it is smart to assume some combination of MOST of the fans will give the best cooling.

Based on the last sentence just above, and I am repeating myself, the rear fan, one top fan, one large side fan should do the job initially.

Once you are running, you can use a 'cheap lab Centigrade thermometer- and run multiple tests on the entire case -- but this means a separate run for each location of the thermometer.

You can do this much easier by using a much better temp measurement technique, meaning 'thermocouples' -- maybe about ten to fifteen thermocouples at different locations within the case. You get all the measurements at all locations at essentially the same point in time. Your thermocouple setup includes the thermocouples themselves plus a switch to select each one plus a 'voltmeter' readout calibrated in temperature values.

You may can get a 'hobbyist' thermocouple setup for a 'reasonable price'.
------------------------------

I also suggest you run a condensed version of this post by a qualified 'tech' person at the case manufacturer's 'tech support' based on the premise that you 'have a minimum number of components installed initially but plan to load up the case with more components in the future' -- that way you can get an independant confirmation of my comments.
----------------------------
I think your case design is meant to have extreme cooling available -- but I do not, initially, see the need with a minimal number of components, to run 'a maximum quanity of fans meant to cool a high middle level or a very high level of components'.
But you do have a case with maximum flexibility to generate maximum cooling as needed for any number of 'total component iterations in the future'.

[zburns]

Here is a link to a pretty good Wikipedia article on Computer Fans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_fan

Scroll down below the half way point, you are looking for the topic 'Fan connector'. This para describes one three pin connector and two four pin connectors. A total of three 'different from each other for a reason' connectors. This basically explains the 'connector iterations for fans'. Note: the words 'two four pin connectors' make the connectors sound like they are the same, but each one of the two four pin connectors are different from each other.

Back to the Important Topic: You need to know if you can run the 240 mm fan or fans off the Gigabyte mobo, and, taking all three Gigabyte fan connectors into account, you need to know if you can run two or four total 240 mm fans off the Gigabyte mobo. The only way to know this is to see in writing a Gigabyte spec on the 'fan connectors' electric requirements and if that spec states a specific total volts and amps rating for all the fan mobo connectors. Gigabyte is generally very detailed, so I assumed they would have what I refer too, or an equivalent 'statement' that effectively answers the question.

Once you have that spec, you can decide on a total fan configuration; hopefully, you can run three or four fans off the mobo. If you cannot, and, it there is a left over 4 pin molex plug with cable, you can get an adepter cable to fit into the psu 4 pin plug and the adapter cable will have a 'fan connector' on the other end. I will post a link to a site I did look at earlier this am for this adapter cable to the four pin molex psu cable.

Not mentioned in a while, but the fans are +12 volts, and, I did see that in my reading.

[Bryon]

Wow! Thanks for all the great info. I guess your right I really don't need all those fans. For the H100 I was gonna mount it under the 2 x 200mm and have it pull coolo air into the rad, not sure what the rest of the fans will do yet.

I guess there is a NZXT Phantom owners fan club(Very big infact) - They gave me this info:



You don't hook any of your case fans to the board. All 7 fans have their own plug that come from the controller. The fan controller is what powers the fans with a 4 pin power connection




Fan Controller can run at 20W per channel, so you won't see a power loss over the channel to cause reduced speed

Yes 3Pin Fan splitters or Y-Cables are widely available

I have 3 channels that are running 12 fans

I have
2 front
2 top
1 bottom
1 rear
2 CPU
1 PSU
3 GFX

total of 12 fans


So it looks like I should ok?

Bryon

[zburns]

You are suggesting to use the case 200 mm fans in lieu of the H100 radiator cooler fans? Your radiator is 240 mm and will have mounting holes designed to 'fit around' the 240 mm footprint -- or is the 240 mm footprint and 200 mm footprint, somehow, identical?

The 240 mm radiator needs to use all its 'designed surface area'. Does not the existing 200 mm case fan restrict that area, or, is the top 'hole' large enough that the 'required footprint for the air thru-put' for the 240 mm radiator will be satisfied!! -- Important!

The fan controller for the case fans sounds nice, makes sense with all those fans. The H100 has its own fan controller and the H100 is cooling the cpu -- not sure you can use the 'case fan controller' at all wrt the H100!!

Read your manuals, H100 and the case manual -- you will figure out the choices. But you have to deal 'correctly' with the top opening with respect to getting the full 240 mm radiator a large enought hole that allows for 'full clearance' for the 240 mm size of the radiator. Sorry to keep repeating myself.

[zburns]

Okay, I just downloaded your case manual. What I saw explained my confusion. They do show in the manual using a radiator to mount underneath both of the 200 mm fans; ie, both 200 mm fans will be used to draw air thru the radiator. The mounting holes for the radiator they show are in the long dimension, essentially in the center of the radiator, maybe an inch and a half apart, total of four holes, two on each long side. Anyhow, the same picture should be in the manual that came with the case or you can see it on line. My next question is does the H100 radiator happen to have mounting holes that coincide with what I just described, or does the Case Manual mention the H100 by name, etc. -- anyhow that is how they show mounting it. Let me know how it actually looks in real life.

Regardless of any problems you may be looking at, there should be space to easily get the 240 mm radiator mounted -- not sure you have the correct hardware to do it, but you can work around that if need be. Let me know!!

[Bryon]

Rest of my money clears in the morning so I will order everything else I can afford.

The case comes with some rad brackets that will let it hang below the 2 x 200 MM on top, and then the 2 x 120mm fans it comes with will mount below the rad. So the 200mm's will push air into the case/rad, and the 120mm's will pull the air through the rad and into the case. Seems like this will be HUGE but here is a pic showing it work.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/318694_10150284746663581_648568580_8075396_1469272 _n.jpg


I was thinking the top, back, front would pull air into the case and the 1 x 200mm + 2 x 120mm on the side would push air out, I will need to mess around with it for the best airflow.

And yes, the fan controller seem's like it will work out awesome. I'm guessing I just plug the H100 into the CPU fan connector on the Mobo? I will look up some install guides after this post.

I will keeps this thread updated with all the new.. well, updates =]

So far I have
- Win 7 OS
- NZXT Phantom Case

Ordered
- Ram
- PSU
- SSD

Need:
- MOBO
- CPU
- Optial
- H100


Bryon

[zburns]

Looking at some 'stuff' about mounting the H100 inside the case with the 200 mmfans on top. Have two concerns right now. When you mount the radiator inside the case, check this out carefully-- make sure the mounting screws, as they are run in and tightened, do not 'impinge' against the radiator fins and bend or deform them. You should be able to see the screw as it passes thru the mounting bracket on the radiator. At the point the screw has passed thru the mounting bracket, you need to leave some daylight between the end of the screw and the radiator. This is just to advise you in advance of the 'potential problem'. I have no way to know whether the mounting screws are too long, too short or 'just right' -- I am just saying make sure you protect the radiator from 'this possibility'.

This raises another question -- inspect the radiator -- both sides -- looking for any dents or 'scraped off finish to the black color of the radiator'. When a product like the radiator comes out of 'a manufacturing and assembly operation, quality control is an integral part of such an operation, and someone will have looked at the radiator for signs of any defects such as bent cooler fins of scratched paint, etc.'. What I am advising you to be on the lookout for is whether or not your radiator is a 'fresh, newly manufactured item' as compare to other possibilities such as a returned, restocked item, etc.. -- it happens!!

Another unrelated item to look out for. Your 200 mm fans are from the case mfg. Your H100 fans are from Corsair. All this stuff has to meet ATX specs. But it is a fact that you are using 'mismatched' fans with the radiator in between. For a given voltage on each fan, each fan 'wants' to run at a specific RPM. I do not know how much 'leeway' you have in 'one fans output interfering with the other fan's input'; taking this concern a step further, I do not know the consequences, large or small, to the fans, but more important to the proper cooling for the cpu. Again, this is not something only you 'will possibly experience in the future'; other builders have had the same situation, so the clarifying info is out there. Just need to find it and clear the matter up.

[Bryon]

I have read about this as well, It seem odd that there is no mechanic to stop the screws from being able to be tightened right into the radiatior fins and break them. Thanks for the reminder on this though, I will have to be careful.

I heard things like little tiny 'dings' just happen and its not worth an RMA, is this true? Or should I be diligent and make sure I get one that is perfect with no marks what-so-ever.

Yes I thought about this as well. The H100 will be connected to the mobo and it has its own fan control, like 3 speeds or something like that. The 200mm's I will fully be able to control from the top fan controler. Some air seems as it can blow around the rad because it only covers about half of each fan, but I will have to make sure the H100's arnt on low and the 200mm's arnt on high, not sure the outcome of that, and/or if it would damage either of the fans.

Bryon

[Bryon]

Ok dumb question...

This is the optical drive I am getting(It's here just need to grab it in the morning)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204

Its "OEM" so does that mean it wont come with a sata? cable. The power will come from the PSU, but i'm guessing its a sata im gonna need.

Bryon

[zburns]

Its "OEM" so does that mean it wont come with a sata? cable. The power will come from the PSU, but i'm guessing its a sata im gonna need.

You should receive plenty of SATA cables in your motherboard package. To be certain, call customer service at whatever supplier you use for the bulk of your order including the mobo, and, confirm that the mobo you order will have 'x' number of sata cables with it. If it is packed at the manufacturer for the supplier, you can call cust service at the mfg, ask same question, etc.. Do not release your order for shipment until you know the answer.

[zburns]

Its "OEM" so does that mean it wont come with a sata? cable. The power will come from the PSU, but i'm guessing its a sata im gonna need.

You should receive plenty of SATA cables in your motherboard package. To be certain, call customer service at whatever supplier you use for the bulk of your order including the mobo, and, confirm that the mobo you order will have 'x' number of sata cables with it. If it is packed at the manufacturer for the supplier, you can call cust service at the mfg, ask same question, etc.. Do not release your order for shipment until you know the answer.
--------------------
From Mar 13 post:

I heard things like little tiny 'dings' just happen and its not worth an RMA, is this true? Or should I be diligent and make sure I get one that is perfect with no marks what-so-ever.

If it is a 'gentle' ding where the paint is not 'scuffed off' and the appearance of the ding has no 'sharpness' in the shape of the ding -- like something heavy hit it -- where the 'metal deflection' is smooth and rounded, etc., I would not worry. If you can use a tool (needle nose pliers) to straighten it, do not worry. Infact a small deflection is not going to prevent proper cooling -- it is just an appearance thing.

My threshold for a defect like you describe and what I would pass / reject is pretty strict. If it is an obvious 'no big deal', 'just appearance kind of thing', I would give it a pass. As I said above, if the 'defect' has been caused by a 'blow', something hard hitting it, etc., I would want to return it.

I see nothing wrong with ordering from Corsair over the phone and telling or asking the 'customer service rep' to mark the order with a phrase, 'customer insists that physical appearance must be defect free, period'. If the folks who do the packaging see a statement like this and if they are accustomed to seeing and passing on some defects, such a warning would help.

[Bryon]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! <--- Me excited

http://i44.tinypic.com/2r26na9.jpg

Soo the parts are here and just sitting there. I now just found out I have NO IDEA how to build a computer...

Bryon

[zburns]

For Starters, do not remove any circuit board like motherboard, RAM, cpu, video card from their protective bags. CPU will be in a box and then in a plastic housing of some kind but leave it in there.

Do you have a wrist strap with 3 foot clip lead, built in one megohm resistor? Take a look at the thread under Motherboards started by W. Stumpp. Towards the end of the Thread (as far as it presently goes) you will see my comments and his about static control. The physical setup is good for static. It is the system I used for my build, and, I see nothing wrong with it for static control.. The wrist strap is $ 10 to $ 15 and the Statico pads are $ 8.00 each. The part #s for the pads are in the Stumpp post. If you have an electronics house in your area, it is likely they have some form of a 'static disapative mat' for work bench use. Wide use in the electronics industry.

I assume you will follow Rob's book or the online pages. I like the anti static pads for several reasons. You should be able to empty by sliding out onto the pads, the electronic circuit boards.

But you need a good Earth ground to start with. Mr. Stumpp was going to use the screw thru the cover on an electrical outlet. But if you want to use this system, tell me your electrical system voltage wise. The US households are 110 volts ac with a ground thruout the wall sockets in a house or building.

I am surprised I have not brought this subject up with you earlier, but you really need to obey some strict rules on static prevention, etc..

[Bryon]

I have a good antistatic wristband and all that fun stuff, and I know how it all works. So I was comfortable prep'ing and remove the components from their antistatic bags.

The motherboard is installed and the PSU is in HOWEVER, I am not sure if it is in correctly. I am alittle confused by this. It seems simple have the fan on the PSU over the vent where PSU is mounted. However now the words are upside down, and when I look at pictures of other builds their PSU fans are pointed up into the case?!?!

I am following Robs guide but I am stuck at this part.

Bryon

[zburns]

There is a 7 minute video on the product page for your psu, but it completely ignores the 'mounting'. You have a grill in the bottom of the case. Take some measurements to be certain that the center of the psu fan will line up 'symetrically' over the grill. While it may not look as 'video correct', it probably runs fine upside down. That is the way I would do it. If you want to do it the other way with the grill exiting into the case, assume you are 70 % efficient. That means 30% of the 750 watts worst case will dump into the case, that is about 225 watts of extra heat into the case. Do see that as good idea.

If you mount it upside down, call Antec Tech Support, ask them 'any problem upside down?' I am sure they will say none!!

[Bryon]

Sigh, well I "think" my PSU is DOA.. Cant get a peep out of it. For some reason I wanted to test if it worked, and when I turn on the PSU nothing happens, at all. The fan doesnt spin. I plugged it into the Mobo just incase it needed that before turning on but nothing, I hooked a fan up to it and turn on the PSU.. nothing. Any ideas?

Antec HCG 750w

Bryon

[zburns]

Just saw your message. Is there an old fashioned fuse by chance, maybe no fuse in the fuse holder!

Call Antec in the morning, Tech support, ask if all the normal cables have to be plugged up in order for the psu to come on -- some kind of an interlock for some reason only they know about.

I doubt your manual says anything, but look carefully at each page for a hint of some kind. I think I covered the possibilities. They will ship you one tomorrow without waiting for you to return that one - but run this comment by them to make sure they will do it. (probably static got it!!)

Stupid time! Was the power cord fully pushed in? Did you try a different psu cable? Wall outlet is good?

Did the box look like a fresh box off the shelf, only used once? Any damage to the box?

[Bryon]

Ok thanks for the advice, I will have to do that then, and I don't think it could have been static, I had sure I was grounded the whole time. But you never knoww..

Bryon

[zburns]

I was not being serious about the static !! The power supply is probably the one place it is almost impossible to happen. The moment you plugged the cable in the wall, the psu was grounded whether the switch was turned on or not. This assumes you have up to date outlets with a 'valid separate ground wire'!!

[Bryon]

YES, I tried plugging everything in and now it turns on! For like half a sec cause I realized the H100 wasnt connected.. Anywho I will be doing cable managment and see what happens after that =]

Bryon

[zburns]

Good result! A smart power supply.

Remote possibility. The Antec power supply could be designed such that in the absence of a 'valid ground connection' back at the wall outlet, the psu could be designed to turn off. You would have to ask Antec that question. That is a late model (recent) design.

[Bryon]

First Boot Passed!!!

http://i42.tinypic.com/10gxzcm.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/n3uuqe.jpg

Now the hard part of figuring out this Bios =]

edit:
Heres a mem benchmark, no oc

http://i39.tinypic.com/10ngig8.jpg


Edit:

Just a few updates. I don't have my 1TB drive yet only my boot drive and they only thing going on there is OS and AV.

So I have Win 7 and MSE on the Boot drive. Near the end of the updates I started running into some problems. It restarted itself 6 times, not from updates, from an error code 41. Something to do with the power, well I don't even have a GPU yet so I know its not my power. I could reproduce it to happen everytime I went into windows update and tried to do an update, didnt matter which one, and when I did a scan with MSE.

So I made sure I had updated drivers and then updated the Bios to the latest version. So far it hasnt done it again. I was able to finish updates and do a MSE scan.

While running a tiny Memtest tool it did give me an error about a small part of mem(7769a7e -> 7769936) So I am burning memtest86 or whatever its called and gonna run it overnight to be safe. With the case open temps went no higher than 43C in a stress test. Idles at about 26C

Bryon
Bryon

[zburns]

Congradulations on success!! The cabinet interior looks clean and neat. Hiding the cables is neat and a good reason to get a case that allows that feature. Sounds like you definitely have things under control.

[ARchamps]

Congrats on the build. Were you able to diagnose the restart problem?

[Bryon]

Thank you, an I just have to manage the 20lbs of extra cable the PSU came with hanging out the the side haha.

As for the restart problem I have no idea. Memtest86 ran for 6 passes last night and had no errors. I think it was something to do with a driver or bios that was fixed when I updated.

If it happens again I will have to look into it more.

I did notice the Ram is running at 1300, but it is 1600. How can I change this?

Bryon

[zburns]

Hey Bryon,

First, I do not have a Intel cpu like yours (Sandy Bridge) so I cannot deal with you on this subject in detail. Ricky Tick or AR Champs both have quad intel cpus; AR the latest as far as I know.

I can offer a few comments. First to go higher than 1300 (1333), you will have to overclock. The system bus on the Sandy Bridge cpus run at 1066 or 1333; your RAM will run at the 1333 speed unless you overclock the cpu. Your cpu has an unlocked multiplier (k suffix on i5 2500k) for the purpose of overclocking without raising the RAM voltage (pretty sure about the RAM voltage staying the same. I would think your mobo manual will tell you this).

Your manual on the motherboard should specifically describe how to overclock using the unlocked multiplier. I would also think that the few comments I have made would be verifiable in your manual.

Anyway, one of the moderators Ricky or AR should see my post and offer their comments. Until you are certain that you know the procedure for overclocking, I suggest you leave things alone; this is an area where I would be very careful in making changes.

Sorry I could not be more helpful.

[Bryon]

Well I just went into bios, and my ram had a few different settings and I just choose the 1600Mhz one. Didn't have to do anything with the Cpu, however Gigabyte does have a one touch Overclock utility aplication it instaled, So I may check that out, I really have no need for an OC though.

Bryon

[zburns]

Is the RAM now operating at 1600Mhz?

I do not want to sound confusing and I can look up your bios, but there could be a difference in 'setting 1600 in the BIOS' -- ie your bios 'saying' that 'this' is your setting -- and what the cpu actutally runs at. It is my understanding that the cpu system bus will run at two speeds 1066 or 1333 unless overclocked. You can set it for 1600 and a 'label' may show it is 'set' for 1600 but 1333 will remain the cpu system bus speed (unless O/C ed). In effect the RAM will be downclocked to 1333 even tho it is set for 1600.

[Bryon]

Well I set it in the BIOS to too 1600Mhz. I checked it with AIDA64 and it says its running at 1600Mhz. Also I did the Windows Experience thing again and my Ram went from 7.6 to a 7.8

I also did some looking into overclocking and Used the Gigabyte one touch thing to OC my CPU to 4.2Ghz Been running fine all day, still great temps. However I have no need for the OC as of yet so I think I will just set it back.

The onboard graphics are amazing, The main game I play runs at 60Fps with all settings on High. (League Of Legends) However I am going to get into more serious games so im sure I will need the GPU for those.

Bryon

[zburns]

Bryon:

Writer's explanation: The following is the text of page 37 for Gigabyte mobo GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 from the online user manual. In bold print just below is the page title as it appears on the page and the index. The text of the entire black monitor screen is all the written data between 'dotted lines (A) and (B)'. Except for (M.I.T.) in parenthesis, anything in parenthesis is added by the writer for 'quick back and forth' dialogue by referencing Item (numbers) instead of 'text'.

2-3 MB Intelligent Tweaker(M.I.T.) --(Page title - above the black screen)

(A)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Title for the 'black' monitor screen photo)
CMOS Setup Utility-Copyright (C) 1984-2011 Award Software
MB Intelligent Tweaker(M.I.T.)

(Item 1)} M.I.T Current Status [Press Enter]
(2) } Advanced Frequency Settings [Press Enter]
(3) } Advanced Memory Settings [Press Enter]
(4) } Advanced Voltage Settings [Press Enter]
(5) } Miscellaneous Settings [Press Enter]


(6) BIOS Version F1r
(7) BCLK 99.80 MHz
(8) CPU Frequency 3193.86 MHz
(9) Memory Frequency 1330.65 MHz
(10) Total Memory Size 1024 MB
(11) CPU Temperature 30.0 oC
(12) Vcore 1.200V
(13) DRAM Voltage 1.548V
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(two lines of 'keyboard key movements for cursor position' -- these two lines complete the top to bottom 'black monitor screen')
(B)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Request: Please look up, in your manual and on your monitor, the equivalent page or pages in your BIOS for Sect 2-3 titled: 2-3 MB Intelligent Tweaker(M.I.T.) (also, this is the way the index in the manual lists the page). I am referring to your manual here. But also, please go to this page in your BIOS on the monitor so that you can take some data off the monitor screen which I mention below.

Once you have this section on the monitor and with your memory set for 1600 Mhz, please give me the numbers from your live monitor screen for Item (6) thru Item (13).

This screen shows via the BIOS the actual operating parameters of the cpu and the memory. If your data on the monitor screen states the cpu freq to be 1600 mhz and not 1333 mhz then this page should show 1600 mhz (according to Intel, maybe) and not 1333 mhz. Also, the RAM voltage is supposed to be 1.5 v and not what you see above -- so I am curious about that as well.

If there is any confusion in the above, please let me know.

EDIT: I think I have created confusion: I may be mixing up the words manual and monitor. Obviously what I am looking for is the 'live' monitor data with your memory set for 1600 mhz in the BIOS.

[Bryon]

Ok so here is the pic of what I think you want with the Ram at 1600 in BIOS:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ups11g.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ups11g.jpg

Also I have been experiencing those random restarts still. A few a day. I have Loading Fail safe defualts in the bios and I am giving it some time to see if that was the problem. My SSD is the only thing plugged in right now HD wise. Its in IDE mode, so I switched it to AHCI in the REG and in the BIOS but on boot, this screen flashes for a second, a BSOD flashes to fast to read and it restarts. Any ideas?

http://i43.tinypic.com/25f6m3m.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/25f6m3m.jpg

Bryon

[Bryon]

Good news. I got AHCI mode to boot fine. Partly my fault partly my Mobo's fault for too many options.

I had set "PCH SATA Control mode" - AHCI - From IDE

However what I didn't see wayyy at the bottom was:

"GSATA3 Ctrl Mode" Which was set to IDE still. I changed that to AHCI the computer booted installed the drivers and restarted.

The jury is still out on the random restarts. I can confirm it will happen when I have a 80GB WD Enhanced IDE Drive plugged into one of the back USB ports via an IDE to USB converter and I do something like a virus scan or Microsoft updates.

Bryon

[zburns]

All of your post is 'good news'.

First, thanks for posting the 'above asked for' info!! Comments later!!


"GSATA3 Ctrl Mode" Which was set to IDE still. I changed that to AHCI the computer booted installed the drivers and restarted.

The jury is still out on the random restarts. I can confirm it will happen when I have a 80GB WD Enhanced IDE Drive plugged into one of the back USB ports via an IDE to USB converter and I do something like a virus scan or Microsoft updates.

If you want to take a look at 'Call Me Al', an 8 page post in the last year or so. Same IDE/AHCI type problem you figured out. My batting average on 'solving this one' is now 0 wins, 2 losses! Both Al and you figured it out on your own. The value of this forum is that you know you have some place to go and ask a question if you need help -- the forum helps you 'stay on track' or maintain a 'never give up attitude' in figuring out a solution -- a subjective concept but true!!

Your comment: "The jury is still out on the random restarts. I can confirm . . . . " It is doubtful that any company or test lab is running 'statistical tests' on IDE drives in this situation. Are you saying that this is triggered by exclusively by '. . . . and I do something like a virus scan or Microsoft updates . . . . " If so it has to be some 'software conflict aberration' that I would dismiss as 'random' but also difficult or impossible to find without extensive 'software code analysis' -- Unless the product and software is 'in the market place as a viable product' -- no manufacturer or software writer will be looking at it!

We never hear of anyone wanting to use an IDE drive so I assume, if they still have a purpose in new computers, it has to be specialized and not mainstream.

[Bryon]

Well I have been working the past 8 hours or more on my laptop doing tests to get everything working for when I do the final setup on the SSD + HDD.

With a combination of Sysprep and some registry modifications I was able to get everything but the Windows directory onto another Drive.

I did run into a sticky situation with Silverlight and Netflix that I got sorted out, and not being able to find a fix for it on the net, I wrote up and article on it tho I doubt it will ever make it into google searchs.

You can check it out here if interested:
http://bryonm.hubpages.com/hub/Netflix-Silverlight-Error-N8151-Fix

About the random restarts, I agree with you. It has something to do with the adapter or drives themselves. Whenever I plug it in some time later it will restart and give me a hard time booting back up unless I unplug the drive. Because I already had set some things to run off of that drive like my temp files, I just threw a USB in the back as a sort of mini ssd to handle it and although it is horribly horribly inefficient, It gets the job done. I cant wait till I get my new drive and I can do the final setup.

What im trying to say is I think my build is fine, the IDE drive when plugged in VIA the USB adapter is somehow cause a shutdown error. So I am not very worried anymore =]

Sorry if this is a big rambling mess, just wrote that article and I am sick of writing at the moment lol. Looking forward to your comments on the 'above asked for' info =]

And yes that is why I love this forum, I post a problem I have but still keep working on it knowing someone here will be able to help me if I can't get it, thats why I try and give back to the forums as much as possible when I can =]

Bryon

[Bryon]

Well event id 41 is worse than ever. I did a fresh install of windows 7 to see if that helped and its still doing it like crazy. I even turned off automatic restart when it runs into a critical error, but it still restarts!!! Im not sure what else too do.

Bryon

[zburns]

Sorry to hear the above. Please provide the following and I will try to quickly give you a way 'back'.

My item # 1 --Specifically, what 'individual items' comprise 'event 41'.

My item # 2--Also, please provide a 'short list - meaning as few words as possible - of each 'software item' installed and where located. I understand your locations to be the (1) SSD, (2) the IDE drive and (3) USB in the back as a sort of mini ssd -- (exactly what is this -?).

[Bryon]

Here is the error(I think this is what you are asking):
www.paste2.org/p/1949031

Software is nothing. It was a fresh install. No crazy directory hacks this time so no need for the usb.

Hardware:
SSD, Optical drive, PSU, CPU, MOBO.

[zburns]

I will be unavailable for 3 -4 hours. Here is what I recommend that you do. You have to 'isolate' the source (s) of the problem. Here is the only way you can be 'reasonably sure' (close to 100%, said another way 'your best choice', etc) of where the problem is located!!

Right now you have two or three storage locations and the OS plus two or three apps. Assuming three storage locations, the OS and three apps, that is seven items that interact. That theoretically gives you some number slightly less the 7 'squared' or 49 less some much smaller number, lets just assume a total of 41 theoretical possible 'causes' or 'interactions' that cause your problem.

What you first have to do is find out what works. Following Rob's instructions for 'first boot', repeat this process and confirm that you have Rob's end result for first boot. After doing this, follow Rob's instructions to get to the point where you run the Data Lifeguard Utility and be sure you run the 'write to zeros' Data Lifeguard Utility 'final' test or exercise.

Then follow Rob's instructions to complete the 'build' up to and including loading Win 7 completely on the SSD. Do not use the IDE drive at all, at least until you know you have a working system with 'no glitches'.

Your Win 7 disk could be a problem. If you purchased OEM, you are only allowed one loading. What happens after that I do not know exactly how MS stops the use of the disc, but I suspect there is some 'software key' that stops the loading a second time. Surely MS has a way around this and you may have to call them or research it from your laptop.

You have to follow Rob's instructions and you have to get to the point that you have a successful build and you know that for a fact! At that point, you can start doing things 'one step at a time' , retest the system for 'no mistakes' and then go on to the next 'add on' item, retest, etc. -- you get the idea!!

Whenever, you are involved in a complicated process like this, you have to have a 'no mistakes' process to achieve success -- that is what Rob's instructions are all about!!

[zburns]

Just saw your post before mine! Your comments: SSD, Optical drive, PSU, CPU, MOBO. -- there is no IDE drive anymore ? If there is no IDE drive, that obviously makes things easier. Think thru what I just wrote. Remember, you have to have an initial 'working system' and then add things one at a time 'so to speak', test each time. You have to have a 'basic build' that initially works, and, then take it one step at a time from there.

No problem at first, then the problem pops up after making a 'change'. Basic troubleshooting!!

[Bryon]

Well I bought OEM.

Windows update corrupted somehow and there was no fix so I will do another my third install of the OS. However the second time I activated it went through just fine, so I would expect the same for the 3rd. I hope.

I will let you know how it goes =]

Edit:

Looks like OEM has a type of hardware lock, so it can only be installed on the PC it was first installed on. As long as I don't change the CPU or MOBO

Bryon

[zburns]

I doubt that you can run Data Lifeguard Utilities unless you can find a version for SSDs. But what you do need is to be able to start with a new 'completely clean' SSD so that once the OS is loaded and then you add one app at a time, you have to know that the disc is clean beyond that last added app.. Look on the internet for some version of a cleaner for SSDs -- call the SSD mfg, tech support and ask how they recommend you clean the SSD before a 'fresh' load of the OS and some apps!
-----------------------

I assume that when you loaded the OS initially, you should have been able to open some win apps and some version of Win Internet Explorer -- am I wrong with this statement -- I did this last with Win Vista in July or Aug 2008 -- working from memory!
---------------------

Edit: You also have to partition even the SSD into at least two partitions to start with, one for Win 7 and what is left over is the second partition, [or if you have to have an official second partition, calculate the remaining Gbytes, take off 200 Mbytes so that the tail end of the 2nd partition actually exists in your instructions in the BIOS -- I am using my imagination here! I do remember having to set up at least one partition, maybe two -- my Asus manual does not have the word partition in it as far as I know, but the Win Vista install disc certainly had 'partition instructions' in it. Once you do the first partition, it should be obvious how to do the second partition in the BIOS by doing the 'type math I mention above'.] All the stuff in brackets is from memory and I feel that what I am saying is 'logical', etc.-- just cannot be certain -- but at least you should find something in the BIOS that approx compares to what I have said.

[Bryon]

Well I did a fresh install. Took my time. After the OS was loaded up I turned off autoupdates. Then downloaded and installed ONLY the Lan driver. I installed that and then turned autoupdates back and and added all the updates. Before I was installing everything off the Mobo CD they gave me. I didnt use that this time and downloaded everything from the website, making a labeled restore point before each one. Its been running all day without a single hicup! So the only thing I can think of right now is an app or driver on the CD was not working right. I heard gigabytes Smart6 doesnt work well with win7, possibly the problem.

Bryon

[zburns]

Sounds good; glad to hear success. My advice is simple; always 'one thing at a time and make sure it is working, then go to the next item on the list'. You have to really be able to 'tell yourself' -- I absolutely know I did it right!

If you add apps or whatever, one step at a time from this point and verify the 'app or whatever' is working, then if you really do have a problem or a 'conflict' of some kind, it should obviously be the latest 'install', thing, item, etc. that you were working on or with!!

[Bryon]

Sigh.. We when I did a windows update for MSE definitions it did it again. I will have to do some more looking into this.

Bryon

[zburns]

OK, sorry to hear about problems still. For some reason I never saw your post until about 6 pm EST today, and I did check the forum 'What's New' several times during the day! So I apologize for being this late getting back.

Roughly, how long between the time you had 'success' yesterday and when you had the shutdown while updating MSE?

My advice to you yesterday about adding things one at a time and then 'check' it out is a firm rule in a situation as you described it. Also (which I failed to mention) if you are working on the finished build, you still have to wear the wrist strap and it is best that the case be grounded except UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CAN THE POWER BE TURNED ON!! Static discharge is worst during cold days and dry air; any chance those were your conditions yesterday?

If you do not mind, just give me a rundown on what you did computer wise since your last 'success' post yesterday 6:49 pm. Sounds like there is six hours between the 'success' post and the post at 2:40 am about the MSE breakdown.

What is the current situation, right now?

[Bryon]

Yeah it was at least 6 plus hours. I have ran all the hardware tests I can and I cant find anything wrong with it.

I did notice one thing, It will NEVER restart at idle OR under Heavy Load.

I have had it happen with: Windows Updates, MSE updates, While a download from the net is downloading.

Bryon

[Bryon]

I spoke too soon.. it must be hardware. I was doing a fresh install, again, and in the middle of the setup part, where you enter your username, pass, product key, etc. It crashed. Now it is doing it even at idle ever 20 min or less. It has nothing on it, not even connected to the internet.



Critical 3/24/2012 6:42:07 AM Kernel-Power 41 (63)
Critical 3/24/2012 6:24:04 AM Kernel-Power 41 (63)
Critical 3/24/2012 6:17:20 AM Kernel-Power 41 (63)
Critical 3/24/2012 6:05:37 AM Kernel-Power 41 (63)
Critical 3/24/2012 5:50:01 AM Kernel-Power 41 (63)
Critical 3/24/2012 5:47:19 AM Kernel-Power 41 (63)
Critical 3/24/2012 5:40:39 AM Kernel-Power 41 (63)
Critical 3/24/2012 5:28:55 AM Kernel-Power 41 (63)
Critical 3/24/2012 5:17:13 AM Kernel-Power 41 (63)
Critical 3/24/2012 4:56:26 AM Kernel-Power 41 (63)


Question now is what do I RMA first...

Bryon

[zburns]

Just finished a long post with three or four decent points, then proceeded to 'delete it' while thinking of something else; pretty early in the day for this kind of stuff!! Back in about 30 min!!

[zburns]

I just completed a second post, and, I could not get it to post when I finished it, so I will try again right now. It will be an edit to this short post!
----------------

[Bryon]

Wonder why its giving you so much trouble =\

Bryon

[zburns]

Your quote from Mar 22, 6:49 pm:
Well I did a fresh install. Took my time. After the OS was loaded up I turned off autoupdates. Then downloaded and installed ONLY the Lan driver.

I suggest you try to repeat this level of success once more. I do not disagree that it could be hardware, but you need 'definitive proof' or else you will do nothing but eat up more of your time. So try 'repeating' what you did earlier, do the 'logical' updates that affect the OS but do not do ones that are not OS related, necessarily. Do it carefully, no mistakes, etc. -- then let it run for some hours, just let it keep going as long as temps are ok. If you did it before and cannot duplicate it now, then you can say 'most likely' it is hardware.

Be very careful when you do this. You will make decisions to replace hardware based on what happens.
----------------------
As I mentioned I have lost two posts as of now, one of my own doing, the other I do not understand.

Moving ahead!! I have a question regards your case, the fact that you have a separate psu in the case for fans, etc. If your case outlets, ie. USB, audio, IEEE, leds are set in plastic and this plastic is semi- conductive, then you have a similar situation to the older Sonata case which I have. There will be several times a year when I simultaneously get out of the computer chair and touch the semi conductive plastic bezel, with the outlets; there is a static discharge from me to the case, and I get instant shut down. Antec has a fix, supposedly for this; I have paid it no attention yet; when it happens, I just have to reboot -- no damage so far!!

But here is my point in bringing this up! Please do not do anything to your system as presently wired based on what I say in this para; just communicate back to me! Possible situation # 1: If your fans and case outlets for USB, audio, IEEE, leds are mounted into plastic, particularly if it is semi conductive, then you have one set of outlets connected via ground to your separate purchased PSU, BUT also connected to the case PSU via the semi conductive plastic.

Situation # 2. Still with the top fans and the H100 cooler. Since the cooler is for the cpu, it has probably a separate motherboard cooler circuit via the mobo to speed up or slow down the cpu cooler fan. Such a situation allows some motherboard circuits to have a parallel connection to the case psu via the semi conductive plastic (if it exists). You have 'to prove this is not the case' by looking carefully at the top fan mounting. If it is all metal and the H100 radiator with the two 140mm fans attach to case metal which has a normal wall outlet ground, that would be ok.

However, if the case top is plastic for the case fans, you have to rule IN or OUT whether the plastic fan mount is 'electrically' connected to the other case 'normal outlets' ie. USB, IEEE, audio and leds!!

I am not trying to complicate the possibilities -- just trying to logically rule out possibilities. So ask me any questions if you do not understand what I am saying!!
----------------------
I need to walk away from this for a short time, then reread it, rethink it for inconsistency on my part and then correct it. There may be some things I could say better after thinking it thru. It is 11:40am EST Friday; I would think two hours max. I also, request you do nothing until I get back to you. This is getting too complicated; I want to think thru my above suggestions once more.

---------
Second EDIT, few minutes later. Your case psu runs off of what ? The case psu input cannot be connected to the 'input 110 volt' male plug because it is mounted inside the main PSU housing. So does the case psu pick up its input voltage from the cables with a 4 pin molex plug on the end and this cable comes from the large 750 watt psu you purchased, etc..?

[Bryon]

Sounds good.

The back I/O panel is metal and the little metal feet things are all making contact. The fans in the top are all mounted to metal.

The H100 has a cord that comes off, it splits into the cpu fan header and a power plug. The 2 fans on the Rad hook into the unit itself. All the other fans run though the built in fan controller to a power plug that connects to the PSU. So the only fan header on the Mobo in use is the CPU.

During clean installs it has crashed, before I even get a chance to set up a user account or anything. At the part where it extracts the windows files. Corrupted my install so I had to do another. My SSD has the latest firmware, my mobo has the latest chipset.

It will refuse to give me a .dmp file so I am working on forcing that right now.

Bryon

[zburns]

All the other fans run though the built in fan controller to a power plug that connects to the PSU. Which psu do you refer too, the psu that came with the case or the 750 watt psu you purchased separately?

I still do not understand where the separate case psu comes into play. -- the reason I am focusing on this is that your Motherboard has its only 'single point' ground connection. If via the case psu the motherboard somehow 'gets' unintentionally an additional ground, then that can become 'a ground' loop which would have unintended consequences.

[Bryon]

The Antec 750w PSU. What do you mean seperate case PSU? Sorry I got myself confused =\

Bryon

[zburns]

Go to your post dated: 03-12-2012, 03:59 PM . Not sure I understand what you are saying about the fan wiring for the seven fans and the so-called fan controller -- where does all this stuff (fans) get its voltage supply from?

[Bryon]

http://i40.tinypic.com/1e1b8h.png

Blue = Fans
Red = PSU
Black = Case
Green = Fan Controller
Brown = Fan Wires
Purple = Single wire from Fan controller to PSU

Bryon

[zburns]

OK very nice! Really! While you were working on the drawing I was looking at your mar 12 post that showed this:
You don't hook any of your case fans to the board. All 7 fans have their own plug that come from the controller. The fan controller is what powers the fans with a 4 pin power connection

I believe the confusion centers around the last six words: '. . . fans with a 4 pin power connection' . The 4 pin power connection refers to a 4 pin molex plug about 7/8" wide which plugs into a psu cable with a matching molex plug with +12 volt supply probably; however, the fan connections themselves are 4 pin or 3 pin connections but very small plugs compared to the larger 4 pin molex power connection. At the time you did this post I was focused on the actual fan connections, so I read the end of the sentence to be 4 pin connections for individual fans. I looked up the manual and although it does not actually say it, from the drawings, etc., I think I have it right.

Where is your H100 cooler fan supply plugged in? I believe you stated earlier like page 8, 9 or 10 that the H100 would plug into the mobo; just confirm that this is where it is. In thinking about the H100, it made me imagine it not working properly and the cpu overheating and causing the crash. Did you ever look at temperatures of the cpu during the problems -- it never should have been extremely hot because you were not maxing the load on the cpu at all.

Repeating the last para but differently said, during the six hour successful run period did you ever look at cpu temp or at any of the other times when it was crashing.?
------------------
Your quote from Mar 22, 6:49 pm:
Well I did a fresh install. Took my time. After the OS was loaded up I turned off autoupdates. Then downloaded and installed ONLY the Lan driver.

Where do you stand on trying to repeat the success of the Mar 22, 6:49 run? I mean clean up SSD, load the OS. If you successfully loaded the Win7 updates with no problem, I guess I would do it again but nothing else.

Then run and hope for no crash; monitor your cpu temp.
-----------
Might be best to get some rest and start tomorrow fresh! You have been at it a long time now!

[Bryon]

The H100 sits on the CPU. 2 fans that are on the Rad both plug into the H100. 1 cord comes of the H100, it splits into a 3 pin CPU header which plugs into the mobo, and a 4 pin Molex connector which plugs into the PSU.

I have been watching the Temps like a Hawk, even under stress tests I can't get the temps over 40c. I'm 100% sure its not the temps.

And yes about the fan connectors you have it right! It was kinda hard to explain without a picture haha.

I am very worried about jinxing myself but I think I may have made some headway. Besides a very corrupted Windows Update which I am fixing now, it may be working.

In the Bios my Mem voltage was at 1.5v - I read someplace someone was having stability issues and said to bump it up too 1.6v
My CPU Voltage was Auto and it went all over. So I locked it at 1.350v as suggested as well due to stability and I don't think I have had a crash yet.

Bryon

[zburns]

I just got paranoid about the cpu temps because an overheated cpu can cause crashes, I assume. You seem fine in that dept.


In the Bios my Mem voltage was at 1.5v - I read someplace someone was having stability issues and said to bump it up too 1.6v
My CPU Voltage was Auto and it went all over. So I locked it at 1.350v as suggested as well due to stability and I don't think I have had a crash yet.

Verify by part # that your memory voltage is supposed to be 1.5 volts. Did we not already cover that topic?

Curious but how do you get a corrupted Win update?

If you are running ok, I suggest you leave it alone for a few days until you are comfortable with everything. You will also relive all of it and you might get some good ideas out of that process; you will be thinking about the problem sequence and probably have some good ideas when you are not putting a lot of pressure on yourself. See if your H100 allows you to set a temp cut out.

[Bryon]

The Ram Voltage says it SHOULD be 1.5v - However I have read some posts of it not being stable at 1.5v and needing to go too 1.6v

Windows Updates got corrupted from multiple crashes while it was in the middle of doing updates.

I got one PageFile BSOD, but at least it gave me a Minidump, gonna go over that and see the problem. Other than that so far so good, Got Win update fixed.

Bryon

[zburns]

I looked at Newegg and you are right 1.5 v. Read some reviews on Newegg; did see one where the voltage was raised to 1.55. Otherwise no mention of voltage at all. If problems continue, drop your RAM speed down to 1333 from 1600. Running 1600 is not of any benefit. If you look at the screen shots, your RAM is running 1600, but the clock frequency is 3400 Mhz plus a little which is the Intel spec for the processor. The 1600 RAM is not really affecting the Base Clock or the cpu speed.

I do not know that dropping to 1333 will help but you might as well find out. The latencies will improve.

[Bryon]

After those pics I set everything to defualt so the ram had gone back too 1333. So far no crashes. Why would changing those voltages fix it?

BRyon

[zburns]

Here is a Tom's Hardware article which will explain partially what is going on. I have some other comments a little later. But when I suggested you drop the RAM down to 1333, I was quite sure it was going to work, partially based on this article but another reason as well.

Here is the link, scroll down to 'HEXit' -- he is the article author: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/328389-28-intel-ddr3-1600-memory

There are other shorter posts on the link in addition to Hexit. They are worth reading; they provide some further ideas that need to be confirmed or checked out before one settles on them as completely 'factual'.

[Bryon]

So you think the crashes were because the Ram was at 1600 not 1333? Before I bumped the Ram up too 1600 I was still getting the crashes. So I think it was raising the voltages. Interesting thing was it wasnt a BSOD crash, it would never generate any kind of report, it would simply restart.

Bryon

[zburns]

Basically I think (cannot prove based on available data) that your clock frequency or even the Base clock was slightly unstable, meaning the frequency was supposed to be almost exactly 100MHz base clock and the clock freq exactly 3.4 Gbyte (3400 Mhz), but somehow (reason unknown), the 1600 RAM at 1.5 v was contributing to the 'slight instability'. This 'slight instability' became 'unsustainable' at some point and you have a crash. The RAM used in desktops is 'low cost' for obvious reasons. One of these reasons is that DDR3 RAM (also DDR2 and other iterations) is not accurate in the 0's and 1's it puts out -- it makes mistakes and the cpu waits for the RAM to 'get it right' on the next cycle (s). When the cpu 'cannot get it right', it crashes -- speculation on my part. In the cpu software, there is a check on the accuracy of the RAM data -- if the data is inaccurate for a period of time that crosses a 'threshold limit', then a crash occurs ???

Without 'guessing at things' anymore, other than this point -- raise the RAM voltage to 1.55 or even 1.6 just for a short period -- and see if things change with the RAM set to 1600 Mhz. Even if raising the RAM voltage allowed RAM operation at 1600 Mhz, I do not see how that 'squares' with a Base clock of 100 Mhz and a Clock Freq of 3.4 Ghz (3400 Mhz) but here is the problem or dilemma for this scenario -- see next para.

There is a comment in one of the links I gave you (I think -- I have it somewhere so I can find it) that says the following: The clock frequency has to be at a stable 3.4 Ghz because the Integrated Graphics runs on the same 'system bus' as does the cpu.
That is a comment that makes sense until you try to explain or understand what happens when one 'overclocks' and the clock frequency dramatically increases.

To 100 % reach an understanding 'at our level', there needs to be more accurate information available. This information may already be in available 'white papers', specifications, etc. from Intel; this information may be a 'subset' of info from a different topic, altogether!
------------------
I suggest you leave your RAM set to 1333 and operate with the RAM set that way. Then do some overclocking according to Intel's rules for the i5 2500k, and see what transpires. It is my understanding from 'reading Intel pub docs' that the Base Clock and the Clock freq of the Sandy Bridge line is, respectively, 100 Mhz (0.1 Gb) and 3400 Mhz (3.4Gb), and, that trying to increase either of those frequencies with higher RAM speeds (unless overclocking is used) will not work.

[Bryon]

So you think its safe to leave the voltages where they are? Ram = 1.6v CPU = 1.350v Ram = 1333MHz

I have been on it all day and been unable to provoke a crash at those settings.

Bryon

[zburns]

I wrote a long post, not realizing that initially with your 1600 RAM, you were initially set at 1333.
------------------------
So the purpose of this post is for 'you to clear up my misunderstanding'. Are you saying that when you went back to 1333mhz on the RAM, at that same time 'you raised the RAM voltage' to 1.6 volts and from that point on you had no crashes?
--------------

OK, your answer does not matter. Lets just both agree on how you proceed from here.

1. Verify that you run find with no problem at 1333 and 1.6 volts.

2. Change your RAM voltage to 1.55 volts, RAM still at 1333. Do you run crash free? if so leave setting at 1.55 volts.

3. Are you absolutely certain that with RAM at 1333 and 1.5 volts that you routinely crash? Yes / No
---------------------

All we are doing with the above is pinning down 'what settings work' and 'what settings fail'.

[Bryon]

Im kinda nervous to change it back cause I don't want to crash but your right I want to be sure.

It has been at least a day of use and no crashes with Ram 1333 1.6v - So I know those settings work, However I also did mess with my CPU voltage. So I will set that back to Auto. If I start crashing I wont even have to bother with Ram I will know it has to low a voltage at idle or something.

So:

1. Yes, no problems so far.

2. I will set my CPU back to auto before messing with the RAM to check for crashes.

3. It was either the RAM or CPU voltage change that did it. I will have to check.

Bryon

[zburns]

Please do things 'one at a time' and give the computer enough run time on the 'excess' side of things so that you are reasonably certain of your statements. For example you sort of know the 'time between crashes' that you were experiencing -- give it twice that so that you are certain.

On your cpu packaging, did Intel not make a statement about Vcore voltage and what it should be? After I finish this post, I will see if it is on the spec page with or without any footnotes and do an edit to this post.

I emphasize -- you must do things one at a time and give enough run time that you feel comfortable per 'thing that you do'.

-----------------

EDIT FOR INTEL Vcore voltage: Please look at this link - Q & A between Intel employee 'Adolfo' and builders / users: http://communities.intel.com/message/150226 -- Max V core is 1.52 volts. This is determined by their die layout with the 32 nanometer spacing. When Intel says 1.52 volts, this means to me that they are specifying this, I assume, as a voltage that they know will allow the cpu to last for many years without significant degradation due to the 32 nanometer spacing.

[Bryon]

Ok so, I found the reason for the crashing/restarting. Now I just want to know why its doing this and if its normal. Should I RMA?

The reason is because my CPU Voltage was Set at Auto, so it would idle up and down when I did different tasks. However when it dropped below a certain voltage, it would restart, no BSOD, no Dump.

Here is the results after I did some testing, what are your thoughts.



Auto & Normal = Restart after Load
0.750 -> 0.950 = Restart after post
1.000 = BSOD on Load
1.050 = BSOD after Hard Lock, right after desktop loads
1.100+ = Stable


Bryon

[zburns]

I assume the voltages in your post are from an active monitor screen from the BIOS. Is it a big deal or easy to give me screen shots of these voltages?

15 min later, see below:

This from a reviewer's site, 'Masters Lair' at this link: http://www.masterslair.com/vcore-vtt-dram-pll-pch-voltages-explained-core-i7-i5-i3/

The default vcore depends on your processor’s VID, which is different for every CPU and is set by Intel in the factory, but it’s usually around 1.1 – 1.2 V. The absolute maximum vcore voltage recommended by Intel is 1.4 V, so I’d recommend staying under that for everyday use.

These voltages on the Masters Lair site are a good deal lower than I gave you to expect -- but I would like to see your screen shots -- just one page or more.
----------------

Also, I was under the impression that you are running. I assume you have Win 7 installed. The other day you ran about 6 hours between crashes -- right now 'what is going on relative to crashes ?'

---------------------

9:25pm. Just a couple of comments. 0.750 -> 0.950 = Restart after post -- your comments --now my comments: computer restarting, therefore, it is not shutting down and these voltages do not matter.
If normal voltages are 1.1 to 1.2 volts on V core, then when your BIOS shows 1.000 or 1.050, I am not sure these are not normal -- these voltages are so close to what the above site says is normal.
(these comments are just me thinking out loud right now). Another thing that bothers me is Intel saying V core max is 1.52 and this writer for 'Masters Lair' review site says 1.1 to 1.2 is normal sounds weird to me. I think you are something around 1.35, I thought.

[Bryon]

Yeah the voltages in my post I manually set and those are the results.

As for whats going on with crashes, as long as im above a 1.100 Vcore I don't crash. So its been 12+ hours, im sure more though.

Bryon

[zburns]

To know the relevance (accuracy wise) of your measurements, you need a screen shot from your bios of V core voltage. If you are running ok, then you should be able to get one pic from the bios -- although I would take more than one at say 15 or 30 minute intervals for several hours. This assumes your computer is running right now and has been for some time now.
---------------------------

Yeah the voltages in my post I manually set and those are the results. I do not understand what you mean. If you are making test measurements, they have to be under real operating conditions.

----------------
If you manually set those voltages, how do you know those voltages actually occur prior to a crash? If you monitor your V core volts for a couple of hours and you are running ok, you should see 1.1 or 1.2 volts constantly on the monitor.

[zburns]

Your quote:
Auto & Normal = Restart after Load
0.750 -> 0.950 = Restart after post
1.000 = BSOD on Load
1.050 = BSOD after Hard Lock, right after desktop loads
1.100+ = Stable

My Quote:I do not understand what you mean. If you are making test measurements, they have to be under real operating conditions. (I understand the results, some of the process but not all of it)
--------------------
You artificially (experimentally)(EDIT) determined the 'crash' point voltage on V core for your cpu. So the obvious solution is to raise V core some small amount until you have a small safety margin on V core that prevents crashes.

The other dilemma that presents itself is the very low values for V core in the 'Masters Lair' link I gave you versus the relative high value in the Intel article in the link at the top of this page, but here it is again: http://communities.intel.com/message/150226
In this 'Intel community forum', the Intel employee states V core max to be 1.52 volts. That seems to imply that the voltages you worked with are extremely low -- If the Intel employee is correct with 1.52, that is a 0.42 voltage difference at V core of 1.1 volts vs. the Intel article voltage of 1.52 volts maximum.

I think 0.4 volts between a minimum V core voltage of 1.1 and a maximum of 1.52 is a very wide spread -- such a difference is bound to have raised other 'discussion' on the web -- but the only 'discussion' that matters is Intel's explanation.

At any rate, for the time being raise your V core slightly to 1.2 volts and see if that does not prevent crashes.

EDIT, 11:06 am EST: Recently, I did have email contact with an Intel Rep. I should still have the email contact address. Provided I have that I will try to compose a 'simple message' regarding the spread between V core (intel link above) and the very low values you have been working with.

Also, it is reasonable to arrive at a temporary conclusion, assuming the V core of 1.52 volts from the Intel link above is accurate, and the very low 'crash threshold' of less than 1.1 volts (V core ?) that you experienced is from the BIOS page. Given the conditions of the previous sentence, raising your V core by 0.10 volts should not be a problem!

(EDIT) I am assuming your voltages to prove the V core crash point were read off the BIOS page; if not there is potential for an accuracy error. Nevertheless, the solution is to slightly raise the V core voltage as stated above!

[Bryon]

I'm sorry, I am soo confused..

The reason im not crashing now is because I have already changed the Vcore to above 1.100 (1.350 to be exact) already. I went through and manually input voltages into the Bios and booted the computer untill I found a stable voltage.

Is it normal for the vcore set on auto, normal or any of the other voltages to make the system unstable, or do I have a bad CPU. Sorry if im not making sense I just have myself all confused now.

Bryon

[zburns]

When you deal with one problem for an extended period of time and try lots of different things, confusion can easily result. Working long hours on the same 'problem' typically worsens the problem rather than helping to solve it. One thing that really helps in troubleshooting is to 'do one thing at a time and know for a fact that you are doing it right and that you understand the problem and exactly what it is that you are doing and the reason for doing it'.

Hopefully, you have solved the problem. Your voltages indicate that a V core of 1.100+ is stable and less than that probably leads to a crash at some point, probably driven by the instantaneous load presented to the cpu at any point in time -- so much load that the cpu at a 'certain V core voltage' will not function properly. But there is a V core voltage that will handle that maximum load, it just has to be fractionally higher than V core when it crashes.

Right now, I would assume you have solved the problem, particularly if V core is set at 1.35 volts. Let it run for some days to confirm everything ok. I would not load anymore software right now other than what you need to get on the internet.

I will (planning to do so) present a description of this problem to Intel and should get an answer sometime this week.

[Bryon]

Awesome thanks, yea your right, trying to many things at once got me all wore out and confused. I will keep running it at 1.350v for a few days and see if all is well. I would be really interested to hear what intel has to say, and if they think its a bad processor, I may try and call them tomorrow and ask.

Bryon

[ARchamps]

All processors have different overclock ability, just an FYI. What processor speed are you going for?

[Bryon]

Just an update. I have had 1 crash at 1.350v

I got advice to set the CPU voltage to normal and then change the CVID untill it was stable. However after going all the way up too +0.400v CVID I was still crashing and the VCore was peaking at 1.6v

So I just got off the phone with newegg and they are Advance RAM, and shipping me a new one right away. Giving me 30 days to return the old one. Amazing support.

I will update when I get the new one. He put next day shipping so it could be friday or monday.

Bryon

[zburns]

Sorry you are having the problem again. Bring me up to date via the questions below, please.

You ran for 'X' days, did nothing to the computer, then had a crash? Now you have made some changes that you detailed above and you are still crashing -- frequently or relatively infrequent? Did Intel advise you to make these changes?

You were using Crucial RAM but I looked for the part # and could not find it. Please give me the part # of the original RAM. Is the RAM Newegg sending you the same as the original RAM and is it still Crucial?

Just before you started your build, we had about four forum members using the same MSI motherboards and Crucial RAM with cpu / RAM problems. In all cases the MSI board was the same as was the Crucial RAM. The solution was identical in all four cases, changed from Crucial RAM to Kingston RAM and all the problems instantly went away. I wrote if off at the time to a conflict between the MSI mobo and the Crucial timings. I have no specific idea 'exactly' what was the problem but changing the RAM solved the problem -- we also upped the RAM spec in the process.

[Bryon]

Sorry typo. That was ment to be RMA* the CPU. So they are sending me a new CPU.

It ran for about 2 or 3 days then it crashed again. No changes. And no intel did not however a tech person on the windows 7 forums did. I really don't want to have to get new RAM so we will see if this fixes it.

Bryon

[zburns]

If Newegg is sending you a replacement CPU, then you should confirm with them (if you did not ask already) if you are getting a 'fresh' brand new one, and not 'an open box' cpu, where it is a 'return', 'checked out as ok', reboxed for shipment as OK for 'replacement' purposes. I have no idea if they even allow 'open box' shipments on CPUs or not. Newegg does do some things ,open box, and I do not know their policy as to 'when it can occur or not'.