Permission for take off

[addnon]

Hi all,

This is my first build and I'm looking for some feedback before I pull the trigger. I understand that is probably not the best time to be building a new PC (especially with the sandy bridge issues and what not), but it is an absolute must that I have a new computer now. I am completely open to suggestions and substitutions.

Some info:
-I'm fairly competent with computers
-I play games every now and then, Not a lot, but I still want my games to look nice and run smooth
-I am a graphic designer/web developer/coder
-Illustrator, Photoshop, Dreamweaver must run flawlessly
-I want my computer to be solid, smooth, and reliable
-I want to spend around $800-900.
-I have a LCD, optical drive, mouse, etc.

Here is the list:

New egg link:https://secure.newegg.com/WishList/MySavedWishDetail.aspx?ID=22502508

Case: Antec Three Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
$59.95

Mobo: ASUS Sabertooth X58 LGA 1366 Intel X58 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
$187.99

GFX card: ????

PSU: Antec EarthWatts Green EA-430D Green 430W Continuous power ATX12V v2.3 / EPS 12V 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power ...
$44.99

CPU: Intel Core i7-950 Bloomfield 3.06GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor BX80601950
$299.99

RAM: GeIL Value PLUS 4GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500) Desktop Memory Model GVP34GB1066C7SC (x 3 = 12 GB Total)
$119.97

HD: Western Digital Caviar Black WD5002AALX 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
$59.90

TotaL: $772.79

[RickyTick]

I'm not so sure about that ram. Normally instead of buying 3 sticks of ram, you would buy 1 kit that has 3 sticks of matched ram in it.
Also, that motherboard is not on the "approved list" for that ram.

Otherwise, your choices seem fine. For a graphics card, the GTX560 Ti is a top contender, but you could save a few bucks with the GTX460 1gb and still get excellent performance.

[geniusnot]

Ricky: Are you comfortable with the 430 W PSU? geniusnot

[RickyTick]

Built a system for my Dad a couple of months ago with the Antec 300 case and 430 watt psu. It has one hard drive, one optical drive, and one video card. There are 2 case fans and an aftermarket cpu cooler and fan. It all runs perfectly. As long as the psu is of high quality, it can easily run a system like that.

In fact, for years, Dell has been making similar systems with psu's less than 400 watts.

[zburns]

Hi Addnon,
Adobe products are somewhat difficult to deal with regarding specific gpus and a specific Adobe application. Ricky, has accidentally stumbled on a psu dilemma, I think; the overall system power requirement for an Evga GTX 460 is 450 watts minimum but with the caveat that there must be a +12 volt rail with 25 amp capacity. The EA 430D has two +12 volt rails, one with 16 amp cap and one with 17 amp capacity. This is not the same as one +12 v rail with 25 amp capacity; there is no way to find out whether it would work or not, and you would endanger your components by trying it in the sense that a dramatic psu overload on one +12 volt rail could cause damaging microsecond or millisecond voltage spikes that could harm components.

The other problem with the 430 watts psu is that it does not meet the Evga gtx 460 minimum system requirement by 20 watts -- admittedly this is a 'picky or ridiculous comment' -- but that is not the point. PSUs are not the most expensive part of a system, cpus, mobo, RAM, SSDs (if you have them), etc. are the most expensive and the most vulnerble. You just should not try to equal PSU maximum wattage to a 'system wide minimum wattage requirement (evga's system req for the 460). Gvien a choice, I would always recommend 'exceeding so called system power req' by about 20%.

Here is Evga's comment for the GTX460: Requirements, Minimum of a 450 Watt power supply. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 24 Amps.) Two available 6-pin PCI-E power dongles.

The fact that the EA 430 has split +12 volt rails gives you a situation for which you can effectively not get an answer from anyone, Evga, Antec, Invidia -- the only answer any of them should give is "NO" -- do not use it. A momentary psu voltage spike will last 'for some or a fraction of a 'microsecond' at least'; this can cause a voltage overload on components which can 'kill' them at that moment or set them up for failure at a later time from 'being weakened by the overvoltage'. -- this last sentence is the reason to buy PSUs from known and respected psu manufacturers such as Antec -- but you do have to watch out for specific specifications -- in this case, certainly a surprise and tricky.

Here is a link to an Adobe blog by an Adobe engineer that will help: http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/09/how-to-set-up-a-great-photoshop-machine.html It is a very good blog or article with reader comments and worth reading by Adobe followers.

(It is my understanding that many Invidia gpus and Evga gpus have the same name; this because Invidia is the original designer and holds design patents; Evga is licensed to make these cards, sometimes with some alterations.)

[addnon]

zburns,

Thank you for that very informative post. I have some thoughts:

-Can I get by on a 500W PSU? I know you recommended 20% more than required, but 600W PSUs are getting pricey.
-Does it matter how many 12V rails I have? It just needs atleast one with 24a, correct?
-What brands (besides Antec) do you recommend?

[RickyTick]

This one will be hard to beat.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139004

[zburns]

To answer your question, yes you could get by on 500 watts, but I would ask you to put it aside for another day. I just rechecked Evga on the 460, I made a mistake, here is the spec from Evga: Minimum of a 450 Watt power supply. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 24 Amps.) They do not specify a single rail. It puzzled me that my antec 500 watt supply is split on two rails, each rail (I think) +12v@18a, one for the gpu card and the other for the mobo and cpu, and any other stuff. Realizing this sent me back to Evga and . . . you know the rest.

The 430 watts is still cutting it close, even if it will work. You have a 'hot' cpu and a hot graphics card which you may run all out some of the time. We do not know the 'ampere draiin' directly related to the graphics card at full power drain of the gpu card.

Look at it from a different perspective - I indicated this above - a good power suppy is an insurance policy that not only powers but protects your cpu, motherboard, video card -- all expensive components. (I can show you a reference from actual users that claim 'blown up' mobos, hard drives, etc., from a failed low power PSU. Probably the +12 volt supply overloaded, killed itself and in the process with voltage spikes took out other expensive components). You want enough wattage but from a known quality manufacturer that gives good odds of long life, and, if the psu happens to fail, lets hope it does so in a 'safe' manner -- does not throw voltage spikes all over the place damaging or destroying other components. This is why I like some safety factor -- meaning it is not a good practice to run your computer +12 volt rail (s) right at or close to the maximum ratings for extended periods of time.

The PSU should be chosen after you have picked all other components. I looked at Graphics Cards most of the morning. I am going to keep this short, can explain in more detail later if you want. Adobe has a seemingly unending product line -- lots of stuff. Straight forward Photoshop and no video does not have tough system requirements. At the other end, if you use 'After Effects' you have very large memory and graphic card requirements.

Invidia has most of the patents covering their 'method of technology'. Other companies are licensed to make their boards; Evga being one. Invidia makes a full line of graphics boards for graphic design. The Quadro FX series and the Quadro series. Lowest price about $ 600, but the rest of them about three or four under each name range from apx $ 1700 to $ 3500. They certify these boards for specific applications like Autodesk and other rendering applications. But they also mention, (but only a few) GPU boards like the one you are looking at or similar ones from Radeon -- but they do not certify them as they do the 'professional boards'. Adobe does list the normal 'gaming' gpus as fine for their applications, but they to will list the very expensive boards.

I know you do websites, and I read that some of Dreamweaver blends well with some video. I guess my question is do you do video editing. If you do, is it a small amount, medium or large amount? If you do a small amount of video I do not think that really affects anything. If you do a lot, that can affect the graphics card.

I am going to close this post but I should be able to make any final suggestions tomorrow. Here is a very good commentary or blog from an Adobe employee, certainly worth reading. Click on this link: http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/09/how-to-set-up-a-great-photoshop-machine.html

[Khapheen]

I just completed a new build last week with the e 460. I only use CS3, and not every day, but everything seems to be working well, so that might be a good vid card for you without spending too much.

[zburns]

Addnon,

(viewer, please note, the link below to ...Studio One ... has changed from yesterday. Below is the correct link, at least it works today. This is a new 2011 webpage, so I guess some changes should not be a surprise)

Here are my wrap up comments on your build, in particular the video card. This is a very difficult subject to deal with in a short and concise manner.

1. If you look at Invidia webpages for Invidia cards that support Adobe products, for example Photoshop CS-4 and CS-5 (with its extended iterations), what you see is mostly Invidia promoting the Quadro and Quadro FX series. Some GeForce and Radeon cards. But the emphasis is really on the more expensive two series of Quadro cards.

2. If you look at Adobe for recommended video cards, the Invidia cat #s you get are older numbers, and, there may be an emphasis on the higher end Quadros.

3. Here is a link to Adobe Support that you should look at: http://www.photoshopsupport.com/photoshop-blog/08/cs4/photoshop-cs4-nvidia-gpu-graphics-card.html

Look down about the middle plus some for the following (this is from Adobe PS support): makes ref to the 'line of demarkation' between using Quadro or GeForce cards, limit being CS4. But appears to be dated Sept 24, 2008; so I assume the para is essentially true for most of or parts of CS5. In fact the bottom of the article shows a 1999 -2008 copyright, which means it probably has not been updated or edited since the article was written.

If you are using Photoshop only, then either a Quadro or GeForce card will work. Their quote from the above link: "If you are using any other Adobe Creative Suite 4 application, Quadro is certified and recommended. NVIDIA offers a complete line up of Quadro and GeForce GPUs to fit in to any budget. Determine your budget and purchase the GeForce or Quadro card that is right for you." They clearly tell you CS-4 will use Quadro or GeForce, but go beyond CS-4 and they imply you should use Quadro.

4. Go to this link and you see Invidia recommending Quadro for CS-4 and CS-5 http://www.nvidia.com/object/adobe_PremiereproCS5.html

5. Finally, go to this link which is dated in 2011 - very new - and a lot of video card stuff on. Most of all, straight talk and some good information. Everything on lots of cards is included here and the folks seem straightforward and honest in their statements. Here is the link: http://www.studio1productions.us/Articles/PremiereCS5.htm --- This is the really important link to look at -- all the meat here!!

Look at the GTX 460 and the statement that says this card must have 1 GB of memory for the Mecury Playback Engine to unlock. So it has to be a particular version of the card. I think the price for this card is mid $ 200.

More important, read the author's comments and qualifying statements at the beginning of the page and throughout the page -- it is a really long page.

6. You are not going to buy a $ 1500 or $ 2000 graphics card; I could tell that from your first post, nor do I think you need one. But I think it helps you if you can see what I call the confusion surrounding the gpu cards for Adobe's various programs.

7. It does seem that the expensive Quadro cards start to kick in with some of the extended applications in CS-5, and other of the Adobe suites or products that have to do with creative video and video editing.
-----------------
All of the above has to do with trying to understand how to make a decision on a card, not for games, but for graphics. I will do one more shorter post with some closing comments.

[addnon]

zburns,

You have been extremely helpful thus far. Thank you.

Regarding the video card:
1. You are correct in your assumption that I will not be buying a Quattro card, or for that matter an "officially certified" Nvidia card. They are just too expensive for my needs.

2. The 2011 link you sent me is extremely helpful. I have a few cards in mind now, but with varying power requirements. Creating them most cost effective combination (PSU + video card) is now the deciding factor. I don't really video edit, although I own Premiere.

3. I should have mentioned that by trade, I am not a designer. It is simply a hobby of mine that extends my income from time to time. Think of this as a budget build for an advanced power user.

RAM:
1. Someone brought up concern with the RAM I chose and said it wasn't "matched." My understanding of matched RAM was that it just meant that all sticks of RAM were the same exact model. What is wrong with buying 3 seperate packages of the same RAM? Here is what I was looking at:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820144457

[zburns]

This post is about your 'matched RAM' question. Here is a link to a forum where the whole page is about memory. Go to the bottom of the page, the last post -- a GSkill post. The discussion sort of hits on what you are asking. Here is the link: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=195662&perpage=6&pagenumber=15

The discussion by the GSkill rep is good and it is accurate. They guarantee that performance because they know the relative quality and performance of a particular set of dual RAM sticks for dual channel or of three RAM sticks for triple channel. It is no trick to get you to purchase at a higher price. That computer you plan to build is much more like a Swiss watch than you may realize and matched RAM pairs or in sets of three are much preferred over for example, one stick made six months ago being put with a second stick made a month ago. Even tho they have the same specification, they work better when their characteristics are extremely close.

[skott]

Are we really saving much/any money by building our own?

[addnon]

This post is about your 'matched RAM' question. Here is a link to a forum where the whole page is about memory. Go to the bottom of the page, the last post -- a GSkill post. The discussion sort of hits on what you are asking. Here is the link: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=195662&perpage=6&pagenumber=15

The discussion by the GSkill rep is good and it is accurate. They guarantee that performance because they know the relative quality and performance of a particular set of dual RAM sticks for dual channel or of three RAM sticks for triple channel. It is no trick to get you to purchase at a higher price. That computer you plan to build is much more like a Swiss watch than you may realize and matched RAM pairs or in sets of three are much preferred over for example, one stick made six months ago being put with a second stick made a month ago. Even tho they have the same specification, they work better when their characteristics are extremely close.

Thank you. Will read.


Are we really saving much/any money by building our own?

This is a quick search on Newegg, but no i7 950 computer is under $1000. Also keep in mind that there is no quality assurance for individual components and what not. The overall reviews for those computers are mediocre in general.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100006736+600014723&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=10&description=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&srchInDesc=950

I already have an LCD, keyboard, and mouse. I also have access to a Windows 7 Professional license key for free. If you can find me a slick deal on a PC that meets my needs, please let me know! I must be looking in the wrong places! :(

[zburns]

Addnon, good morning!

(viewer, please note, the link below to ...Studio One ... has changed from yesterday. Below is the correct link, at least it works today. This is a new 2011 webpage, so I guess some changes should not be a surprise)

Some final comments on your build. The 2011 link I gave you is significant in that it provides a lot of information that the manufacturers websites do not provide you with -- we are both almost forced to go to this website to see a comprehensive analysis -- of which graphics card to use and when -- this statement does not mean that the authors of ths 2011 site are 100% correct in all their comments -- but they do provide a 'very wide look' at graphics requirements for games and design. It is easy to use their site and compare all the things you wish to compare to make a decision.

Here is the '2011 link I refer to above': http://www.studio1productions.us/Articles/PremiereCS5.htm

One topic I did not discuss with you is the amount of CUDA cores in a Invidia Graphics Card. The more cores, the faster the card is when taken by itself. When plugged into a system, it may be slowed down by the choice of cpu and the amount of RAM available (also the prescence or lack thereof, of a 'scratch disc' for quicker usable memory access.

You are limiting your system by the amount of money you wish to put into it, and, there is nothing wrong with that. Assume, you decided to purchase a really low end (performance wise) graphics card with, for example, 92 CUDA cores. It is possible that this choice of graphics card would be the limiting factor in the final and overall speed of your system; another way to say this, is that your Bloomfield cpu would not be used anywhere near capacity, meaning a more powerful graphics card should have been chosen.

You can get graphics cards with CUDA core counts as high as 500 and slightly more -- but they will be expensive. Also, a card with a CUDA count of about 500 may require a higher performing cpu than you have chosen. I am not certain that we can pin down an 'exact great match between graphics card CUDA core count and the cpu you intend to use -- (RAM and question of scratch disc can be easily dealt with, however, cpu and motherboard, once purchased, you have to use them).

My suggestion is to use the Invidia GTX 460 card but with the 1 gigabyte video memory which will (according to the 2011 article allow the unlocking of the Mercury graphics engine on the 460 card). The GTX 460 has approx 66 % of the CUDA cores of the maximum available. It may turn out, that this choice allows your system to run at close to top cpu speed (high percentage of cpu usage according to Windows Task Manager and other Adobe(?) software measurements of cpu efficiency) but I have no way of knowing in advance the speed of your overall system.

Ask me any questions about what I said above. I look at the above and I see 'easy to get confusion' in the statements because it is a relatively complicated situation. The 2011 link and site gives a 'really good single page look, analysis, etc. of graphic card comparison' -- far better than anything I have seen in 'other' sites.

[zburns]

One last comment I do not think I have made concerns how the word 'graphics card' is used. To an architect, design engineer, artist doing original creative videos from scratch graphics cards mean highly techincal cards that translate highly complex math equations into visible tools individuals can use to create 'designs or original creations' in their chosen field without the laborious work in making drawing after drawing manually by hand -- months of hard work by multiple people in some cases -- a highly technical computer system using creative technical graphics even at a cost of thousands still saves money when compared to manually doing the work.

It is just a fact that what is "on" a gaming card, is original art created by an graphic artist using the mathmatical tools that also work (to levels of varying degrees) for the architect, engineer, advertising design, and medical images from CT and MRI machines. A gaming card uses a limited amount of the graphics technology while other very high end graphics cards costing several thousand dollars use not only basic graphics technology but other 'math equations' researched and created at Universities, companies and individuals who specialize in very high end graphics solutions. That is why Invidia and the software compaines test a particular high end graphics card to fit a particular design of a graphics application.

[addnon]

Here is my updated list. I sacrificed some memory for the sake of a more reliable PSU. I think I will be happier this way. Any thoughts?

Case: Antec Three Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
$59.95

Mobo: ASUS Sabertooth X58 LGA 1366 Intel X58 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
$187.99

GFX card: MSI N460GTX Twin Frozr II SOC GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi) 768MB 192-bit GDDR5
$149.99

PSU: CORSAIR Builder Series CMPSU-600CX 600W ATX12V v2.3 Active PFC Power Supply
$59.99

CPU: Intel Core i7-950 Bloomfield 3.06GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor BX80601950
$299.99

RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500)
$79.99

HD: Western Digital Caviar Black WD5002AALX 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
$59.90

TotaL: $889.89

[zburns]

Your mobo uses triple channel RAM. I am pretty sure you need 3 sticks of identical RAM, minimum, one for each channel slot. Someone correct me if I am saying it wrong.

Your gpu card will not let you take advantage of 'unlocking the Mercury Engine' within the card, requires 800 plus MB of memory (if I remember it correctly -- I will check and correct, if wrong)

PSU choice is good.

[RickyTick]

Ditto what Z said.
This is triple channel ram. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231225

[addnon]

I thought the mobo will default to dual channel architecture if three sticks are not in place. Atleast that is what I got from this link:

Scroll down to triple channel
http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-011965.htm#single

[RickyTick]

This might help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-channel_architecture

[addnon]

The architecture can only be used when all three, or a multiple of three, memory modules are identical in capacity and speed, and are placed in three-channel slots. When two memory modules are installed, the architecture will operate in dual-channel mode.

From my understanding, it seems that two sticks would still work?

[zburns]

The Wikipedia reference you gave, I found independant of your post, in seconds. It pulled right up and has your reference to dual channel, which I have never heard of. I suggest you call Asus Tech Support and ask them. Ask them at the same time how much speed you lose by doing this.

One other question that I just thought of sort of goes like this: If you initially load up one slot of each of the three channels with matched RAM, and then a year from now you buy three more sticks of matched RAM -- but not 'matched' to the original three sticks -- and the new RAM goes into the unused adjacent slot of each channel, what is the impact of each channel not having 'known' matched RAM installed?