Introduction and Questions.

[Joseph]

Hello, my name is Joseph. Currently I am a Game Art and Design student at The Art Institute of Washington, focusing on 3D modeling, and the programs I use are Autodesk 3DS Max and Mudbox, Photoshop, Topogun and Marmoset Toolbag for rendering. I am also a gamer. I would love to play FF14 on a better system than my laptop and other games like Crysis 2 this March or Summer.

This will be the first PC I build and I know a little about the components needed to build a PC. I have been to both of these recommendation lists:

http://forums.mysuperpc.com/showthread.php?1642-Recommendations-Budget-Build

http://forums.mysuperpc.com/showthread.php?3368-Build-Recommendations-High-End

I noticed at the bottom of the list there are $800+ options to build. But Im confused about the High End $805 build and the Step Above AMD $839 Budget Build.

Questions:
What is the Difference between AMD and Intel? I am used to Intel, because almost every computer I had including this laptop is Intel based. Intel is more of a household name due to their commercials.

What is the difference between High End and Step Above Budget?

Should I just go for the High End build?

Using on of the Recommended PC's build, will it be easy to upgrade when the time comes?

Thank You,
Joseph

[RickyTick]

Hello Joseph. Welcome to the forums.

There isn't a great deal of difference between the builds. I just wanted to offer people multiple options, plus some people just have a preference between Intel or AMD, or Radeon and Nvidia. It's almost like Ford vs Chevy, or any other random comparison. Sometimes it's just whatever you get comfortable with.

In order to run the software that you listed, you'll want something fairly powerful. The recommended builds are a couple of months old and Intel has introduced a new platform called Sandy Bridge that is in the works. If you can wait a few weeks, you can take advantage of the latest hardware.

[Joseph]

Thanks, RickyTick. I don't know much about Sandy Bridge but I'll study up on it. I'm looking at staying in $900 range, if need be, I'll go up to $1,000+. When you say I'll need something fairly powerful, would one of the higher up recommendations work at least for FF 14. The errors I normally encounter with Mudbox(over 2 million polys), max(painting), other 3D software, and baking out normal maps is that my Virtual Memory is low.

This is coming from my laptop. My laptop can run FF 14 but not at acceptable frame rates. If you want I can post the Specs of my laptop? And go over the specs of my laptop to determine what type of PC to build.

Thanks,
Joseph

PS Sorry if it seems like I'm being to needy.lol

[zburns]

Hi Joseph and welcome to the forums.

We understand up to a point (sometimes) what it takes to build high end (gaming) computers. To me there is some confusion about Photoshop and its applications. There is a difference between high end for 'running' games and high end for rendering and, or, editing the original content of games (ie, their design). Another example would be, in industry (leaving out architecture just to keep things simple), the original design of all kinds of manufactured items, automobiles, which are looked at from all kinds of 'angles' before a final design is locked up, motorcycles, airplanes, etc.. Then you also have straight forward industrial equipment, office machines and furniture, appliances, home furniture, etc.. For a designer all this stuff has to be put on a drawing board (now a computer -- ultimately with very large screen for visual perspective).

There is a difference between playing a game and doing creative rendering and video editing, frame by frame, of that game. So my questions or curiosity is about the following: in rendering a game, for example, how many individual frames of a video do you actually work with, 100 % of the frames or less; then in editing the video, I assume you would also work with 100% of the frames. Your various software apps you mention above would make your labor a heck of a lot less, but my question remains, do you actually have to look at each frame in both the rendering phase and the editing phase; also, as part of your work on a 'complete' video project, you have to 'save' each frame.

Does your rendering software actually do some of the frames for you 'automatically' but even so, each frame (done automatically or by hand) still has to be saved (for checking and editing if need be) -- this question goes to the 'smoothness' and speed of 'simple viewing of the frames for approval or editing' ?

My questions and comments actually go to the amount of RAM required to minimize delays. 'Photoshop After Effects' product description recommends maximum use of RAM, while 'system requirements' on other graphic design apps generally mention smaller amounts of RAM (including other photoshop apps).

Not knowing where you are in your school curriculum, I would appreciate any comments you would have on any of the above. Everything I have said is without any direct familiarity with or use of Photoshop; but I do have technical experience as well as some still photography experience including processing.

[Joseph]

Thanks Zburns. For now I'm going to give more info about what I'm doing in school and break down how I use each program. I am majoring in Game Art And Design, and in my Senior Year, building my portfolio. I consider myself a 3D modeler, but I am focusing on character modeling, specifically organic.

Photoshop: I mainly use Photoshop for designing concepts and for texturing. The problem I have with Photoshop is that I can't use the Poly paint feature without low frame rates, and I cant use any DPI settings over 150 without low frame rates.

3DS Max: I use Max as my primary modeling package. In the current version of Max they've added a Poly Paint feature in which I can paint up to a point where running out of video memory crashes the program. Another problem I have is going above a 20k Polygons will cause max to crash from memory problems.

Mudbox: My primary sculpting package. Main problem is running out of memory when going over 2 million polygons while sculpting. And the information from Normal map bakes cause the program to crash from memory while painting.

When it comes to rendering out my work. Max takes about 30 minutes to 1 hour depending on the character, lights and shaders for video renders at 720x480, 6 second turnaround. In Mudbox it takes 60 sec+ to render out a 6 second turnaround at the same resolution. The frames are rendered out automatically in Mudbox. In Max it's automatic, but I can also choose how many frames I want to render.

To sum it all up I assume it's all in the RAM and Video Memory. But I would love to build a computer that can play games and I can do my work. Right now my laptop is using the GeForce 9200 M GS. It runs everything fine, but I want to make a PC that allows me to play the games I want and to take my work a step beyond from what I am being limited too.

[zburns]

Hi Joseph:

This post comments on various aspects of your build. Many of the comments are not directly related or dependant on each other.

1. Your present laptop and its problems with speed. Your laptop uses a GeForce 9200M GS which is a graphics chip/processor. This chip/processor has 8 CUDA processing cores. By contrast a high end gaming card the GeForce GTX 470 has 448 similar CUDA processing cores.

In a desktop computer, properly built, the GTX 470, the quad cpu and RAM all compliment each other in that nothing 'waits' very long on the other. Ie, either the gpu is waiting on the cpu or vice versa. The RAM if insufficient will slow everything down.

So your problem is 'a dramatically slow laptop' as measured by a routinely available destop computer.

2. If you go to the AutoDesk website and the individual programs, their software is very detailed and complete in how it helps select a graphics card for a specific autodesk application.

Under their Certified Hardware (graphics cards), you pick 32 bit or 64 bit, then your choice of OS (Win 7). You are then directed to a particular PDF file with very detailed instructions -- easy to follow. Their professional cards are all tested and certified to work on a particular Autodesk Application. Unfortunately, all Certified Cards such as the Quadro FX series and the Quadro Series, cost in the range of $ 1500 to $ 3700.

Some of the regular gaming cards are also tested; they tell you this; however, they are not certified. A regular gaming card might have 'segments of a graphics design app' that it will not do well or at all (and in some places they tell you what it is that does not work).

While the cost difference if quite large between the Professional card and the gaming card, ultimately it is worthwhile for the professional designer in terms of clarity and efficiency.

3. You are a student. And you have a number of Graphic Software Applications that you personally use; I assume this software was provided to you by your school.

So when you build this computer, your graphics software apps and your OS (operating system, Win 7) will be provided by your school. Assuming this is so, I need to know before going further on a equipment list, if you have 64 bit software available for all the graphics applications and do you have Windows 7, 64 bit OS available to you.

The reason why this is so important, that any OS running at 32 bit can only use a maximum of 3.5 gig of RAM, while a 64 bit system using most common desktop motherboards can use 24 to 32 gigabyte of RAM -- an absolutely huge difference -- and most of all a huge improvement in some graphics design applications. Photoshop After Effects makes no bones about it. In some video or movie frame by frame adjustments, the application will use all the RAM you can throw at it.

An ideal system will get around 'frame dropping' and other delays by use of 64 bit, quad core processing with hyperthreading (8 processing cores - 4 logical and 4 virtual).

4. A 32 bit system will be a large improvement over what you have. When you graduate and go to work for a 'graphics design firm', you will immediately be in a 64 bit environment as well as a 'small 32 bit environment'. I say this only where you have to use an application that only is written for 32 bit; if 32 bit graphic design apps are out there right now, they should disappear in the space of a few years.

However, in your school environment, just from a student 'study and lab computer' viewpoint, 32 bit software may be economically necessary from the schools viewpoint; hopefully, you have access to both.

5. So a major question is do you have to use 32 bit right now because of student software being available or is student 64 bit software available across the board?

6. Please do not misread the intent of my comments above. Even a 32 bit system with 3.5 gig of RAM will do a lot better than your present laptop. It is just that 64 bit has come into its own the last several years. If you are forced to use 32 bit software, that does not affect your hardware choices; you can always upgrade the software.

7. Notwithstanding anything I said above, I think you can use a $ 250 - $ 350 gaming graphics card and do the job that satisfies you for your present purposes. All the reasons for the complex rules surrounding the pro graphics cards relate to 'happy, pleased business customers' and the fact that a business does not like wasted time, mistakes, inefficiency, etc.. So their graphics cards fit the 'run a tight ship category'.

[zburns]

I moved these comments to a new post. They are really about a different subject. Some of what I say is just my opinion. I would be curious what other forum members have to say about 'not waiting on Sandy Bridge'.

Sandy Bridge is the architecture for the 'near' future and if you use that now, it will be a good investment for 3 - 5 years, and upgradeable in terms of RAM and the GPU card. Sandy Bridge will be faster than the Quads it replaces; however, if you cannot wait on Sandy Bridge (April, presumably), then you go with i7. Waiting on Sandy Bridge might give you some better speed that you can see in the graphics processing -- but I cannot prove that at all. I guess what I am beating around the bush at, is the simple fact that no matter what Quad (with 8 cores) running at 64 bit, it will be dramatic in performance. All the horses that run in a Kentucky Derby are really fast, but one is faster (Sandy Bridge).

You are in your Senior year; if you graduate in June, is waiting until April too late to build with Sandy Bridge? If you go with current available technology, you will still have a very fast system. You would probably wait out the next technology change for 3-5 years in favor of the new system regardless of Sandy Bridge-- I am speaking for myself and what I would do. There will be a speed difference between Sandy Bridge and today's technology assuming 'close as possible' matching components but it will not be so dramatic as to make you want to go thru a change -- my opinion.

If you stick with the current technology and do not wait on Sandy Bridge, I would go with the High End Recomendation - maybe a few minor changes. Also, I do not think there is a monitor on the list. For Graphics, I would think you want a 24 inch minimum. But having been at it in school for some years, I would think a monitor size ( and why )would be well fixed in your mind by now. You look at them every day; you have to have a sense of what is an optimum size!

[Joseph]

I'm running Windows 7 32 bit OS on 2GB ram. Even though the school is using Windows XP 32 Bit OS and Software, we don't have to use 32 bit. Our choice in what software and OS we use is up to the student. The school only provides the software for their PC's, students unfortunately have to find there own way to get software. (Note: I bought this laptop back in 2008 and purchased without the knowledge of the differences in a 32 bit OS and 64 bit OS, ram, GPU and CPU.) I am taking my final portfolio review in March, and will be graduating around June. For a while I have wanted to get a Desktop, and have always been interested in building one.

Waiting for Sandy bridge won't be to late as I'm saving money so I can afford building a PC, I also don't feel comfortable using new tech, just in case there are any problems. I will probably go for and i5 or i7. I'm looking forward to building a PC mostly for future projects than my recent projects. I just wanted some help and feedback from you all that has experience building PC's before I just decide to build a PC and waste money.

[RickyTick]

I also don't feel comfortable using new tech, just in case there are any problems.
Exactly what happened with Sandy Bridge, but they've identified the problem and it's being corrected. If you want SB, there's no reason to feel uncomfortable with it now.

With that said, Intel has decided to drop some prices on other processors to fill the gap while also getting rid of last generation inventory. The Core i7-970 has dropped from $885 to $583. That's a killer price for a genuine Gulftown 6 core cpu. Also the i7-960 has dropped from $562 to $294. Definitely worth considering.
http://www.intc.com/pricelist.cfm

[Joseph]

Thanks. Ricky. That's good news to hear since I'm just saving money.