Building a rig for CS5

[marekd]

Hi all!

I am a real newbie to this. I'm building a PC for use with Photoshop (on daily basis) and Premiere about once a month. No gaming. I've put together a rig via one of the boutique builders, and it's a bit more than I was hoping to spend. This is what I put together:

Processor: Intel Core i7 Extreme Edition 980X 3.33GHz (Six-Core) (Extreme Performance)
Motherboard: EVGA X58 SLI 3 Edition (USB 3.0 & SATA 6Gb/s) (Model: 131-GT-E767)
System Memory: 24GB DDR3 1600MHz Digital Storm Certified (Highly Recommended) (6x4GB Sticks)
Power Supply: 1000W Digital Storm Certified (Dual/Triple/Quad SLI Compatible) (Silent Edition Highly Recommended)
Expansion Bay: - No Thanks
Hard Drive Set 1: Operating System: 1x (160GB Solid State (By: Intel) (Model: X25-M MLC Edition) (Extreme Performance)
Set 1 Raid Options: - No Thanks
Hard Drive Set 2: Multimedia\Data: 1x (600GB Western Digital VelociRaptor (10K RPM) (32MB Cache) (Model: WD6000HLHX)
Hard Drive Set 3: Backup\Misc.: 1x (2TB Hitachi/Seagate (7200 RPM) (32MB Cache)
Optical Drive 1: Blu-Ray & DVD Writer/Reader (Burn + Play Blu-Ray & DVDs) (12x BD-R) (Lite-On iHBS112)
Optical Drive 2: - No Thanks
Internet Access: Wireless-PCI N 300Mbps (Supports 802.11n/g/b)
Video Card: NVIDIA PNY Quadro 2000 1GB (Outputs: DVI, DisplayPorts)
Sound Card: Integrated Motherboard Audio
Extreme Cooling: H20: Stage 3: FrostChill Cooling System: CPU Only
Chassis Airflow: Standard Factory Chassis Fans
Boost Processor: - Overclocked to 3.9GHz
Boost OS: FREE: Yes, Disable and tweak all of the non-crucial services on the operating system
Windows OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate (64-Bit Edition)

And here are some questions that I have as I'm trying to bring the price down:

1. Is there a significant increase in performance (running applications) in having SSD as the boot drive vs 7200RPM drive vs 10K RPM drive?
2. How does Nvidia Quadro 2000 1GB compare to Nvidia Quadro 600 1GB?
3. Does Nvidia Quadro 600 1GB support multiple monitors (how many?) Is it a decent card?
4. Where should I be looking to save the money in this setup (what would you downgrade)?

Here is what I was thinking:
1. Change the boot disk SSD to 500GB Western Digital 720 RPM (16MB Cache) in RAID
0 or to 300GB WD VelociRaptor 10K RPM (16MB Cache) in RAID0
2. Changing the Nvidia Quadro 2000 to Quadro 600
3. Changing 2nd harddrive to something 7200 RPM.
4. Changing cooling to Noctua NH-U12p SE Dual 120mm Fans
5. Changing Power supply to 50W Corsair TX (Dual SLI compatible)

What do you think?

I just don't know enough about this.. :confused:

Thanks a bunch for your time!
Marek

[zburns]

These are some quick comments. I can give some more later. Why a six core processor. You are not gaming. What is the real diff in CS5 running on a quad vs six core? How many multi threads does Adobe build into their CS5 software? 24 gig of memory is probably way too much. PSU may be too large by about 200 to 300 watts but that depends on the final choice of graphics card. If you want an SSD for fast boot, you may only turn the system on several times a day or just one time; what is the hurry about boot time. Comments about HD's later. Quadro 2000 has a lot of processors and is relatively inexpensive for a industrial graphics card. Is this the best card that Adobe recommends for CS 5. There is no reason to overclock unless you are gaming. Overclock may be dangerous to the life of your cpu. Win 7 64 bit is probably the only choice and a good one!

Question. What kind of internet connection do you have?

I have read thru your list several times and these are the comments that come quickly to mind. I will take a longer look at the graphics card and its relationship to CS 5.

Comment on the RAM. Once you are up and running, you can routinely check Windows Task Manager and see the % of total usage of RAM while CS5 is running; that is what tells you whether you need more RAM or not.

#5, your psu comment, 50W Corsair TX psu -- did you mean 500 watt? Dual SLI compatible refers to high end gaming.

[RickyTick]

I agree with Zburrns. There's a lot of overkill here.

[The Wise Monkey]

Just to throw in my .02 here, you may want to get a small SSD i.e. 32GB to use as a scratch drive for the CS5 products.

[marekd]

Thank you guys!

First of all, here are some changes I've made in big part thanks to your suggestions - Thank you! They already brought the price down to my price range and now I'm just researching and fiddling with stuff to see where to compromise and save more money.

Here's what it looks like now:

Chassis Model: Digital Storm PROTUS
Exterior Finish: - Standard Factory Finish
Trim Accents: - Standard Factory Finish
Processor: Intel Core i7 970 3.2GHz (Six-Core Gulftown)
Motherboard: EVGA X58 SLI 3 Edition (USB 3.0 & SATA 6Gb/s) (Model: 131-GT-E767)
System Memory: 24GB DDR3 1600MHz Digital Storm Certified (Highly Recommended) (6x4GB Sticks)
Power Supply: 750W Corsair TX (Dual SLI Compatible)
Expansion Bay: - No Thanks
Hard Drive Set 1: Operating System: 1x (160GB Solid State (By: Intel) (Model: X25-M MLC Edition) (Extreme Performance)
Set 1 Raid Options: - No Thanks
Hard Drive Set 2: Multimedia\Data: 1x (1TB Western Digital Caviar (7200 RPM) (64MB Cache) (Model: Black Edition WD1002FAEX)
Hard Drive Set 3: Backup\Misc.: 1x (2TB Western Digital (7200 RPM) (64MB Cache) (Model: Black Edition WD2002FAEX) (SATA 6Gbps)
Optical Drive 1: DVD-R/RW/CD-R/RW (DVD Writer 24x / CD-Writer 48x)
Optical Drive 2: - No Thanks
Internet Access: Wireless-PCI N 300Mbps (Supports 802.11n/g/b)
Video Card: NVIDIA PNY Quadro 600 1GB (Outputs: DVI, DisplayPort)
Add-on Card: - No Thanks
Sound Card: Integrated Motherboard Audio
Extreme Cooling: AIR: Stage 1: Noctua NH-U12P SE Dual 120mm Fans High Performance Cooler
H20 Tube Color:Blue Tubing with High-Performance Fluid (UV Lighting Reactive)
Chassis Airflow: Standard Factory Chassis Fans
Internal Lighting: - No Thanks
Enhancements: - No Thanks
Chassis Mods: - No Thanks
Noise Reduction: - No Thanks
Boost Processor: FREE: Stage 1: Overclock the processor between 3.3GHz to 3.9GHz (Cooling Upgrade Recommended)
Boost Video Card: Life-time Expert Customer Care with 3 Year Limited Warranty
Boost Memory: Life-time Expert Customer Care with 3 Year Limited Warranty
Boost OS: FREE: Yes, Disable and tweak all of the non-crucial services on the operating system
Windows OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate (64-Bit Edition)
Recovery Tools: Windows Recovery Toolkit (Bundled with Windows 7 CD)

Zburns, to answer your questions:

1. Six core - As of now CS5 doesn't fully support 6 cores, but they talk about full support in CS6. It'll supposedly support unlimited threads.
2. RAM - It's really cheap (I'd only save about $60 by going down to 12GB) and it's one thing that Photoshop devours like crazy. I often work with very large (15000px wide) equilateral images and some design project files are 3GB or more. Adobe strongly recommends to get as much of RAM as possible.
3. SSD - I may still reconsider it based on your comments - but it's just appealing to having my system and apps boot quickly.
4. Quadro - I switched to the cheaper Quadro 600 - Photoshop hardly needs powerful graphic cards as far as I know, but Premiere does. From my research Nvidia Quadro help Adobe's new Mercury Engine tremendously allowing real time preview with multiple layers eliminating the need to prerender (the time that it would save is tremendous)
5. Overclocking - If there is any chance that it will decrease the stability or livelihood of the processor I will not be oc'ing. But from my research on related forums I've found that clock speed has currently (CS5) the highest impact on the performance of Photoshop.
6. Internet connection - 6MB/sec download, 3MB/sec upload.
7. I meant to say 750W Corsair TX psu.

The Wise Monkey, I will add a 40GB SSD for scratch, a quick question regarding that though:

- Is it better to put SSD for scratch as a third drive or
- Is it better to get a Dual SSD Hotswap Bay for which I could get an SSD and designate it as scratch disk?

What do you think?

Also, let me know what you think about the new config.

Thank you so much for your input guys. You saved me a lot of money already!!

- Marek

[zburns]

Comments: 1. A six core cpu is more expensive and has 50 % more components inside it that increase 'failure opportunity' (not saying these cpus have any kind of failure mode, just stating a fact). Why not take a step up and get a dual cpu mobo and two quads?

2. RAM. Again, once you are running CS5, your cpu task manager will tell you what percent of total RAM you are using. Saving money is not the fault with having too much RAM in your system; the problem is having more components than you need to do the job and, therefore, increase the 'number of objects that can fail'. However, I would suggest you talk to someone at Adobe and get a specific answer as to how much RAM a quad or six core system needs.(maybe this shows up in System Requirements for CS5 Premier) Whatever RAM you initially install can be increased as soon as you look at Task Manager while running CS5 Premier in a 'maximum mode'. If Task manager shows 80 % usage on RAM with spikes to 100%, then increase it -- a matter of days.

3. Someone correct me if this statement is not right, but I do not think that an SSD is even two times faster than the best of WDs Hard Drives; Western's Hard Drives are very reliable. Who knows, I might absolutely swear by SSDs if I had one, I simply do not know and I do not mind spending money for something good. I guess I go back to the old fashioned statement, 'keep it simple, stupid'. My present system, directly from Rob has worked flawlessly for over three years now. I prefer to keep things straight forward and simple.

4. Graphics card comment in several hours.

5. Until Intel provides a specification as too the limits of OC that can be done, you are running a risk. These very small footprints of 45 and 32 nanometers means very low voltages can be used; even a small increase in voltage to overclock can be detrimental. Again when Intel provides a specification for OC, you should be safe.

6. No problem.

7. Graphics card choice and if you go with 24 gig of RAM, PSU wattage will have to be calculated based on final choice of all other components (including a decision to overclock). But that is a simple matter of adding up the full load performance wattage of the various components that eat up wattage. It is sort of the last thing you do. Decide on a final build list and then you calculate total wattage based on specs. Add a 15 % or 20 % error or safety factor and you have total watts. Never run a PSU at full load for very long.

As Intel and AMD produce faster and more powerful cpus, in order to use them, more complex components arise to go with the cpus; now you wind up with a more complex system. You increase the odds of problems, not at first, but down the road and you have to be prepared to pay to fix them. This present Intel snaffu is an example of not obeying Rob Williams's rule of 'Wait six months before using newly introduced components'. Technology is progressing so fast, that all the systems we use are outdated in a short period of years, causing most of us to start thinking of replacements. My point is to build a system that fits your needs right now, knowing that technology improvements will lead to newer systems in four or five years or sooner. Most of all do not invite trouble by over complex systems.

[The Wise Monkey]

I would recommend having the SSD as a separate drive, if you have the space in your case; just makes it easier to deal with!

I also noticed that you mentioned using Premiere as well, which requires a bit more scratch space than Photoshop. As such, you might want to invest in a 64GB SSD, such as this Crucial C300: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148357

Also, as much as I love the Intel SSDs, they aren't the performance leaders any more. You may be better off going with a larger version of the C300 mentioned above, or the OCZ Vertex 2 is also a good choice, if it is available.

I seem to be in the minority here in thinking that an SSD is the single best upgrade you can do for a system these days! :)

One more thing to bear in mind - if you can afford to wait for a month or two, then the Sandy Bridge platform will be up and running again after the problems it has been having recently, and this may be a better choice for you. However, it is still a very new platform, so it may not be suitable if you want a rock-solid workstation, whilst the i7s are proven technology.

[The Wise Monkey]

zburns and I, posting at the same time, come to similar conclusions. :)

One thing everyone should bear in mind is that this is a custom Digital Storm system, so there will be some comeback if things go wrong i.e. warranties and the like.

[zburns]

Good catch, Wise Monkey!! This is weird. I just paid attention to the Digital Storm Protus entry at the top of the second listing. It is not in the first listing. So it appears what we are doing is making recommendations not to a forum member who is going to build a system, but to a forum member who is asking us to be involved in selecting specifications for a system he will purchase from a assembler who has their own qualified specifiers within their organization. This puts us in competition for ideas or recomendations for the system however, our motive is to give the best advice to a forum member for the explicit purpose of his selecting and building his own system. Here we are competing directly with a assembler/manufacturer with their own reasons for compiling certain models with certain features for their own reasons. So we are basically arguing with the so called designers of the Digital Storm Protus system; does not make sense.

We do not make suggestions or comments on Dell or HP high end computers or workstations; I see this as the same thing. Marekd is buying a prebuilt system from a custom builder, he is not building it.

[marekd]

Thank you zburns and Wise Monkey!

Zburns you are correct that the system will be put together by Digital Storm. I apologize if my configuration question was inappropriate for this forum - I should have read the terms and conditions more carefully. You guys did help me though, tremendously at that!

I'm a total newbie to all of this. I actually even dismissed Digital Storm at first because of the many different components you can choose from that meant absolutely nothing to me. I don't know if that'd be of any help but you can view and toy around with my configuration here: http://www.digitalstormonline.com/comploadsaved.asp?id=484152

I'd be happy to be able to put the computer from scratch and maybe one day I will give a shot at that. But I never even owned a desktop (laptop was my first computer) and I really don't trust myself to put together all these expensive components at this point.

Also, when it comes to SSD and storage, here is what I found a lot of folks from Photoshop forums advising:

Get 3 SSDs and a larger HDD:
1. SSD Boot drive
2. Small (80GB) SSD dedicated as photoshop scratch disk (when Photoshop runs out of RAM it will dip in it)
3. Larger (180GB or larger) SSD for current projects (saving/opening times are reportedly 30%-60% faster if I were to believe these folks...)
4. A large HDD (1-2TB) to store projects waiting to be worked on, etc.

I shoot a lot of weddings in the year and when I typically come back from one I bring about 30GB-40GB of RAW files (15-25mb each). It takes time to go through all that and cull 60-70% of it, convert it to jpg and then work and batch the remaining files (about 700) in photoshop.

Anyway, let me know if going through Digital Storm disqualifies from seeking advice here. I will obviously respect that.

Thanks again for all your help and time! I do appreciate it a great deal.

Cheers,
Marek

[zburns]

Marekd:

I assure you that those of us on the forum trying to help you do appreciate your comments in your last post. Since you made that post, I have tried to figure out what is the most important topic in this discussion we all have had since your original post. We obviously are running around in circles, regardless of the cause of the misunderstanding or whatever you call it. Quick comment on Digital Storm. I went to their website and took a look at their serial photo exhibit of their facilities, workspace, packing requirements, some of their employees. That presentation is well done and professional looking and certainly makes a good impression of those that view it and those that consider doing business with them.

Another thing I was going to point out before we all hit the wall yesterday was someone's choice of a Quadro 600 graphics card. This is perhaps the weakest card of Invidia's Quadro line, having only 96 CUDA processors and costs about $ 150.00, while the Quadro 6000 has 448 CUDA cores and cost about $ 3700.00. In general it is 'relatively' safe to say or assume that the ultimate speed of your computer system in a 'graphics mode' is directly proportional to the speed of the graphics card. It does almost no good to have a six core processor and 24 gig of RAM when you have a 'turtle' for a graphics card. Somehow, the speed of your cpu total cores, your RAM, and your software have to be 'in some sort of balance in relation to each other -- not a quick task to accomplish.

I am no expert on the Adobe product line of software, but the software products cover everything from the ability to manipulate the image content of a single color photograph, to software to manipulate every 8 millisecond frame of a 2 hour movie -- a total of 900,000 individual frames (assumes 8 millsec per frame -- a number I am guessing at, and I could be off by a factor of 2 or 3 too fast -- not important because I am just trying to illustrate how widespread the Adobe applications are.).

When I think of Adobe, I think of photoshop. When I think of photoshop, I think of color pictures I used to take with my 35mm still camera; therefore, I think of Adobe in photoshop terms of altering a picture at a time. A miniscule requirement compared to every frame in a movie.

You are a wedding photographer. You take individual still photos, and, I assume you also take video. Altering the individual photos is not going to require much RAM. Altering the video will take more or less RAM --MAYBE -- depending on the length of the video and how many frames you intend to alter at one time. The kind of alterations you do will affect the computer requirements.

Here is a link to an Adobe tech support page that I came across for 'Adobe After Effects CS5'. The title of the page: 'Memory (RAM) usage in 64-bit After Effects' . Here is the link: http://help.adobe.com/en_US/aftereffects/cs/using/WS9F936D13-E76A-41e4-BF8F-577132AB4723a.html#WS725e431141e7ba651172e08123876 66439-7fff

I am not sure where After Effects CS5 fit into the scheme of things but it does illustrate the 'very wide nature' of this discussion. Adobe After Effects is a separate block of software and I am guessing that it refers to 'enhancing or altering multiple frames to achieve an enhanced effect' in a video or movie'. The reason I bring all this up is 'After Effects' is a software product that eats up memory literally -- but I do not see why this necessarily applies to weddings.

I think what I am trying to say is the following: In looking at your system requirements, that involves (1) Exactly what you plan to do to your individual wedding photos and/or videos in detail. (2) Once you define point (1), you then look at the Adobe apps you will use -- so far you indicate CS5 Premier (Pro ??). (3) Figure out what you will use CS5 Premier Pro to do to your pictures and video (4) Next you pick a graphics card based on final image quality and balance that with price -- $ 600 to $ 3700 (5) Based on the graphics card choice, look at the cpu speed you really need (the slower the graphics card, the lower the cpu requirements in 'cores' and RAM memory.

You also look in detail at the Adobe graphics card (also called graphics processor because that is what it is) and tell yourself that you are entirely satisfied with the choice or you may feel you really need the $ 3700 model but cannot afford it, but will buy it later -- trouble with this line of reasoning is that the 'workstation graphics' landscape will change dramatically (very probable) over just a few years. This being the case, you will be looking at changing the whole system in three to five years.

I am going to stop here. I have given you plenty to think about. Most of all, I am giving you lots of reasons for you to 'know and fully understand' the basics of 'computer building' which is not just putting together parts. In your case it means 'marrying up the applications' to the parts that make up the computer with the understanding that things change, sometimes rapidly, and that upgrading in the future may be required.

Correct me if I am wrong here on this next statement, but Adobe products cover a very large wide field of endeavors. You have to correctly marry your real time application to the correct Adobe product and its system requirements, and then decide on your computer requirements. Said differently, you cannot pick and choose from forums or from what you hear from different Adobe sources. For example, when you hear that CS5 Premier eats up memory, does that really mean your application, or does it refer to a local movie documentary producer in your area who alters 50% of his frames in a 20 minute documentary and he needs 24 gig of memory or more to speed that up. The link I gave you on Adobe After Effects clearly tells you that that software is a memory hog -- I assume that is the case, when a movie producer goes wild with 'the after effects of a car crash, gun battle, etc.'.

Most impotant statement. You have to fully understand your entire system -- not just the computer but your application. Then your application allows you to determine the computer requirements. ( I am probably starting to repeat myself by now so I will stop)

[The Wise Monkey]

First of all, there is no problem asking for assistance with boutique systems such as Digital Storm.

Secondly, I think that zburns has a good point here, allbeit in a slightly roundabout way, in terms of trying to get you the best "bang for buck". While it is tempting to go all out and buy three SSDs and a boatload of RAM, you need to think whether you really need all of that, and if the extra expenditure is justifiable. I'm positive that you know a heck of a lot more about Photoshop than we do, and so have a better idea of the specific hardware requirements that you need. If the system you are pitching fits the bill, then go ahead with it, and I'll sit jealously in the corner with my little laptop. :)

One last thing to bear in mind if you are after the specifics in terms of resources is that this is a more general PC building forum, so you may get better results from the Adobe forums (although it sounds like you already have!).