An Engineer's PC: MATLAB, Java, AutoCAD, etc., and most likely an FPS :p

[wannabegeek]

So I'm about to be heading into the world of an electrical engineer (internship) and I've been told that it would behoove me to come equipped with a PC that can handle multiple design programs, the likes of which I have listed in the title.

Such a computer is going to come at a hefty price I'm sure, so I was hoping to build one to save cash and have something to brag about to my premed friends. I plan on ordering Rob's book for guidance along the way, but what I'm looking for here are some suggestions for such a build. Am i basically looking at a gaming computer? Some general specs for a motherboard, CPU, RAM, and video card would hit the sweet spot.:cool:

[zburns]

Wannabegeek, welcome to the Forums:
Without prying into your personal life, can you tell us if this is graduate work or 'internship' with a large company designing and mfg electrical systems, or a 'think tank', etc.. Is the work research, designing systems and writing software? The reason I ask is that a lot or most of the software you describe has a number of layers or multiple choices for specific applications. You sort of have a heavy duty Hard Drive requirement in terms of 'actual use' right out of the 'gate'. For example, the software for MATLAB, Java, AutoCAD, and more software systems are all basic tools for executing specific technical applications such as 3D computer generated graphics (as opposed to standard high fps color video graphics) .

FPS, Future Problem Solving, I specifically know nothing about, but I can imagine what types of topics are covered. In this endeavor, you deal in a lot of senarios that do not exist yet, but nevertheless you work with a lot of data and you would probably store the results; are you wanting to store all FPS data, both early prelim data and long project data on an active hard drive in your computer or would you want to store this type data externally to keep what may be 'clutter' out of your 'computer case enclosed hard drives'?

Your needs for cpu probably would be the high end of the new Sandy Bridge architecture to get the best speed and features. Video card would be primarily for 3D graphics. You can imagine, design, buy and build a very high end system and spend a lot of money; but personally if I were building my first computer I would still try to keep this type computer as basic as possible. For example you could really step up in numbers of cpus but that is not for the inexperienced or the first time builder. I would want a computer that I can understand clearly how it works and be able to recognize and analyze problems and weird things that happen from time to time.

I wil take a look at the software packages you describe and the system requirements; I will come back with some more specific comments about the various software packages. If you have an interest in SSD, I would first determine your Hard Drive perceived requirements and then take a look at SSD's. But I see a lot of HD requirement to store data vitally important to you, and that, additionally means 'backup' for the data.

[wannabegeek]

My internship (well technically it's a co-op program) is going to be with a large company. From the job descriptions it looks like I'm going to be running a lot of circuit design and testing/modeling programs as well.

By FPS I actually meant a first person shooter video game, I apologize for not being clearer. However, I do plan on using an external hard drive to keep my active HDD breathing a little lighter.

As you have correctly perceived, this will be my first build. I'm a smart kid but I was never a computer fanatic, but I took some basic digital logic and circuit courses last semester which captivated me and I'm looking to dive in head first. I agree that this should be a relatively basic build, I don't need a supercomputer for something like video editing. But I'm always up for a challenge, as long as I can keep the price tag below $1500-or-so.

[zburns]

To wannabegeek: I apologize for the delay getting back to you. Got tied up yesterday, some of it on this forum; today, football, etc.. Thanks for clarifying where you are in your engineering program; I am familar with co-op programs. I should have a fairly complete post for you tomorrow during the latter part of the day; have thought about requirements a lot. If it were me in your present environment, I would be looking at something more in a computer than just a gaming computer, and that is the direction I would suggest. Price should not be affected by much.

One easy question to ask with this post is in regard to the graphics card. A lot of the software apps you mentioned do embody 3D graphics, but it is engineering and design 3D graphics. So logically you would look for a graphics card that fits that description. So my question is whether or not you were expecting to get both kinds of graphics in this new build. Engineering and design graphics will include 3D representation; even the math App, MATLAB can perform 3-D volume visualization functions. The graphics card to do this is somewhat different from the video gaming cards. Were you expecting to do gaming also? If you want to do both, we should try to figure out a way without compromising either form of graphics.

Just wanted to toss out the above topic for some thought! More tomorrow.

[wannabegeek]

I would run games like Half Life 2, etc. So I suppose I would be looking for a setup that could accommodate both, but the ability to process 3D graphics should probably be a priority.

[zburns]

Wannabegeek:
Again I have to apologize for delays on my part. You have a unique situation as I see it and maybe that will unfold with this post. I have a lot of experience in engineering design and manufacturing. We did everything design wise manually for some years but as the early computers became available we adapted to them but the applications were simple and almost always 2D. Evidently, each application you list has to be researched for graphics cards that are compatible and we want to find a card that works with all apps. I imagine there will be a number of cards that work with all the apps.

The next topic involves back up for your hard drive. As you go thru your engineering, math, static and dynamic mechanics you will involve yourself in classroom notes, projects, lab work, etc.. To the degree you put all or some of this on your computer and want to, in effect, archive it for future use you need good HD back up. For your co-op job, you may want to use your own computer for some of that work or for some parallel endeavor related to work -- you may have data during the work months that is very important and you do not under any circumstances want to have a 'Hard Drive' crash and lose all your data.

So back up for the Hard Drive could be a most important requirement. Assuming that it is important, here are my thoughts. A lot of stuff you save to your HD, will be just 'stuff' and you may or may not care whether you lose it or not -- it is not vital to keep it at all costs, etc.. But there will be a lot of very important data that you do not want to lose under any circumstances, and this could really be an important goal for you.

Assuming the above, I recommend you keep a hard drive backup via a additional HD inside your computer but also back of that drive with a outside remote self contained HD that is powered external to your computer case. On the machine drive you do not need to keep all the data, necessarily and you may not want it on your back up drives. When you save to the first extra Hard Drive, you want to then back that drive up with an external drive with independant power. Obviously it the machine drive crashes you are protected. But if the so called 'first HD backup' should 'randomly' fail, it does have an identical backup outside of the machine. Using this method is simple and essentially foolproof from the standpoint that you would not have two random failures at the same time, meaning the two backup drives. You have in addition the machine Hard Drive but it presumably has extraneous data on it you do not want on the backups.

In the area of cpus, I recommend you use the Intel Sandy Bridge Core i7 2600 or 2600K because they are the fastest, running at 3.4 GHz. If you use the 2600K, you can unlock the multiplier and push the frequency up to 4.3 GHz but I am not sure you want to do this for the following reason. The i7 950 for example is based on 45 nanometer spacings whereas Sandy Bridge is 32 nanometers. These spacings limit the voltages one can apply to the cpu; if you overvolt the cpu consistently (overclocking) for lenghts of time, Intel says you run the risk of shortening the life of the cpu. On the i7 950, that voltage is 1.5 volts, on the 32 nm Sandy Bridge, I think it is 1.3 volts or lower. So unless you really want to overclock and insist on it, I would just stay away from it.

With the i7 2600 or the K version, you get 4 logical cores and 4 virtual for a total of 8 active threads running at the same time. A quick comment on RAM; you probably should go with at least 8 gig of RAM which is just a wild guess right now but based on the prospect of 3D image generation for math or autodesk. Because the Sandy Bridge architecture is more inclusive as to what the chip includes, RAM requirements might be a little smaller than previous 45 nm cpus.

I will edit the above and add some more comments in about 1-2 hours.

[zburns]

Wannabegeek:
Again I have to apologize for delays on my part. You have a unique situation as I see it and maybe that will unfold with this post. Evidently, each application you list has to be researched for graphics cards that are compatible and we want to find a card that works with all apps. I imagine there will be a number of cards that work with all the apps.

The next topic involves back up for your hard drive. As you go thru your engineering, math, static and dynamic mechanics you will involve yourself in classroom notes, projects, lab work, etc.. To the degree you put all or some of this on your computer and want to, in effect, archive it for future use you need good HD back up. For your co-op job, you may want to use your own computer for some of that work or for some parallel endeavor related to work -- you may have data during the work months that is very important and you do not under any circumstances want to have a 'Hard Drive' crash and lose all your data.

So back up for the Hard Drive could be a most important requirement. Assuming that it is important, here are my thoughts. A lot of stuff you save to your HD, will be just 'stuff' and you may or may not care whether you lose it or not -- it is not vital to keep it at all costs, etc.. But there will be a lot of very important data that you do not want to lose under any circumstances, and this could really be an important goal for you. Plus your apps incl your OS will all have updates and you want to maintain a current updated status for these items.

Assuming the above, I recommend you keep a hard drive backup via a additional HD inside your computer but also back of that drive with a outside remote self contained HD that is powered external to your computer case. On the machine drive you do not need to keep all the data, necessarily and you may not want it on your back up drives. When you save to the first extra Hard Drive, you want to then back that drive up with an external drive with independant power. Obviously it the machine drive crashes you are protected. But if the so called 'first HD backup' should 'randomly' fail, it does have an identical backup outside of the machine. Using this method is simple and essentially foolproof from the standpoint that you would not have two random failures at the same time, meaning the two backup drives. You have in addition the machine Hard Drive but it presumably has extraneous data on it you do not want on the backups.

In the area of cpus, I recommend you use the Intel Sandy Bridge Core i7 2600 or 2600K because they are the fastest, running at 3.4 GHz. If you use the 2600K, you can unlock the multiplier and push the frequency up to 4.3 GHz but I am not sure you want to do this for the following reason. The i7 950 for example is based on 45 nanometer spacings whereas Sandy Bridge is 32 nanometers. These spacings limit the voltages one can apply to the cpu; if you overvolt the cpu consistently (overclocking) for lengths of time, Intel says you run the risk of shortening the life of the cpu. On the i7 950, that voltage is 1.5 volts, on the 32 nm Sandy Bridge, I think it is 1.3 volts or lower. So unless you really want to overclock and insist on it, I would just stay away from it.

With the i7 2600 or the K version, you get 4 logical cores and 4 virtual for a total of 8 active threads running at the same time. A quick comment on RAM; you probably should go with at least 8 gig of RAM which is just a wild guess right now but based on the prospect of 3D image generation for math or autodesk. Because the Sandy Bridge architecture is more inclusive as to what the chip includes, RAM requirements might be a little smaller than previous 45 nm cpus.

I will look for a compatible graphics card for each of your apps and then cross that card(s) against all the apps. Both of the two cpus (i7 2600 or i7 2600K) above have integrated graphics; you might want to try games with the on board graphics; however, the reviewer at Guruof3D on these new cpus clearly states that the video graphics for games using the onboard graphics is good but at a 'entry' level. That probably means slow fps, and maybe other things.

Have you thought about the size of the monitor, and do you have a preference for manufacturer? There are plenty of good choices out there? On the Hard Drive backup drives, I am not necessarily recommending you do the backup immediately unless the need is immediate. I just think backup that hopefully is fail safe is the way to go; you are the best judge of when you need to do it.

More comments tomorrow, hopefully on several motherboards.

[wannabegeek]

I like the idea of having a backup HD, and I already own an external one that has served me well.

I have no interest in overclocking, my reasoning being that if it gets built with the right stuff it shouldn't be necessary and if I'm gonna go with a high-end processor why risk it?

As for RAM and a video card, I might talk to a professor about how the Sandy Bridge series affects what those components should be. He at least worked for AMD for a while so maybe he'll have some better insight.

I'm still pretty open on the moniter, something in the 25-35" range would do well.

[zburns]

Here is a single para from a Wikipedia page on Sandy Bridge: "Intel Sandy Bridge E Processors are to come with an untied base clock, as with current Nehalem and Westmere processors. A Z68 Chipset, to be released in Q2 2011, will come with “Performance OverClocking” support, as Intel calls it.[13]"

This statement implies that Intel endorses 'Overclocking' to the extent that 'a set of Intel rules be obeyed' (in order to protect the processor). Any such published 'Overclocking rules' by intel would have to be accompanied by other intel conditions that must be met in order to prevent premature failure of the cpu due to setting cpu voltage at a too high levels to achieve overclocking. This would be in keeping with previous Intel statements that setting the voltage too high "may result in premature failure".

The point of the above is that in Q2, Intel will supposely release a chipset that will allow overclocking (again in the context of meeting Intel conditions).

Here is the wikipedia link with the first statement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Bridge_(microarchitecture)

We will certainly know a lot more when this version is released in second quarter, 2011. Here is another link from the Wiki quote on Sandy Bridge; note there is a footnote # 13. Here is the link that footnote # 13 sends you too: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Intel-Sandy-Bridge-E-Processors-to-Comes-with-Unlocked-Base-Clock-169024.shtml

[RickyTick]

The cpu's that end with a "K" have an unlocked multiplier and can be overclocked. The others cannot.

For example
i7-2600
i7-2600k

[wannabegeek]

Ahhh busy busy busy. But this is good stuff, I'm glad I found this site.

Not being a well-informed computer enthusiast (yet), that sounds like a pretty cool feature for a processor. I could squeeze out extra performance if I need it without risking obliteration of the processor.

[zburns]

wannabegeek:
I just finished a long post to you, went to post it, made a mistake and lost it. So this is a fast rewrite, I hope. The gist of the post is that I found a good motherboard by searching for '(manufacturers name) workstation P67 motherboards'. By including workstation in the search, I get motherboards suited for engineering graphics as well as gaming.

This mobo is GIGABYTE GA-P67A-UD7. Here is the Newegg page: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128465

The board has the following slots for graphics cards, both engineering and gaming: PCI Express 2.0 x16 4 (x16, x16, x8, x8). It has two identical x16 speed slots which are independant of each other. To be certain, I called Gigabyte and confirmed that two different cards in the x16 slots will run at x16 speed. That means a engineering graphics card works in one slot while a high end video gaming graphics card works in the other slot.

You also have two x8 slots in the PCI Express 2.0 configuration. Also, one PCI Express x1 slot and 2 PCI slots. There are 4 SATA 3Gb/s and 4 SATA 6Gb/s sata ports. Sata Raid and 2 rear esata ports, all 6Gb/s. Plenty of USB 3.0 also.

By starting with a high end mother board you can always trim down in features but this choice seems to very good to me for what you are doing.

Tomorrow, I will try to find multiple engineering graphics cards (different priced cards) that will work with all your apps.

EDIT LATER: The above mobo does not have onboard graphics, but the assumption is that a better graphics card will be used for video graphics.

EDIT FRIDAY AM: Without my going into a lot of detail, please use this link to Guru3D review on i7-2600 (incl Kseries). It is his 'conclusion' page on the new cpus and has direct impact on what you are looking for. Here's the link: http://www.guru3d.com/article/core-i5-2500k-and-core-i7-2600k-review/23

[wannabegeek]

Good article, I'm just about sold on the i7-2600k. And that motherboard looks perfect. I'm going to be burning a hole in my pocket for this, but I think it'll be worth it.

[zburns]

wannabegeek:

Introduction: There are three posts, including this post all related. I broke them up because I did not think a really long, 8-1/2 x 11 plus some length would be an attractive post to read. I am pretty sure I have reached a conclusion, but I still have some checking to do by phone tomorrow. The items missing from the build are case & psu, drives, cooler, RAM, monitor - all fairly easy items to choose. Everything I have done assumes Win 7 64 bit. The first two of the three posts is included with this introduction.

Motherboard
1. The significant requirement of the motherboard to be called a ‘workstation’, at least right now, seems to be the requirement for expansion slots at the x16 level to accommodate different graphics cards for different engineering applications plus (maybe) one gaming card.

2. I have been thru Asus and MSI high end mobos for socket 1155 (Intel P67 chipset); I need to look at them once more, but my impression is that the Gigabyte P67A-UD7 has Expansion Slot capability better than the Asus and MSI P67 offerings.

3. As I searched for motherboards, I googled 'P67 workstation motherboard'; generally, what I would get would be high end gaming motherboards with added comments for the mobo being a workstation business mobo also. This led me to the two cpu and more mobos that clearly get into the more complex workstations, component wise and very expensive, dollar wise; by default, I then settled on the mobo that provides the most in the way of independant x16 PCIe 2.0 expansion slots. Gigabyte seems to be the only one. Maybe the ASUS Rampage does also, but that is not clear, yet.

Graphics Card
1. Do a search for ‘graphic card comments on MatLab’ the implication you find is that MatLab is only slightly influenced by ‘a specific type graphics card’.

However, here is a significant article and link to graphics cards and Matlab: “Supercharge Matlab with your graphics card? Dated: May 26th, 2009 | Categories: math software, Matlab, programming.” Here is the link to the article: http://www.walkingrandomly.com/?p=1362

2. Just for your information, you might want to look at the Invidia Graphics Cards, Quadro FX 5800, FX 4800, FX 3800, FX 1800 specs and prices (be sure you are sitting down). The only one (s) I would recommend would be the FX 1800 ($ 400 range) or maybe the FX 3800 ($ 800 range). I would think the company you are going to work for would help with the cost of the card at some point. These are the series of cards for most of the Autocad products when they are run on Win 7 (including 64 bit).

[zburns]

Here is the third post.

Workstations

1. Workstations may be more typically defined as being built around motherboards with two separate but identical cpu sockets to support two quads or hex cores with 4 (6) virtual cores capable (both cpus together) of 8 or (12) threads. This type workstation is not what you had in mind and it would be quite expensive.

2. Servers’s (very high speed traffic cops) are a large step up from workstations in terms of processing data volume per unit time, ie, more individual cpus to provide maximum data thruput per unit time (depending on the application). Specifically designed to route huge amounts of data at very high speed.

3. So, you are building a ‘beginners workstation’ a simplified version of a high power multi cpu workstation, but having the same end result; that being the ability to utilize the same applications used by the more complex and more expensive workstations. You will be using one (very fast) cpu on a motherboard designed for workstation work and high end gaming (gaming by default). The distinguishing (workstation) feature of the motherboard is the expansion slots being able to handle, independent of each other fast graphics speeds, as in PCIe 2.0 x16 (having at least two of these slots that two different graphics cards can be plugged into and each run at x16 speed and not be affected by the presence of the other card. There are only a few motherboards that meet this requirement, and, one may stand out better than others; the Gigabyte P67A-UD7.

Closing comment. All of the above is meant for information for you. Figuring this out is not that difficult, there are just a lot of considerations and a lot of stuff to look at. The engineering graphics requirement make you look at a lot of stuff. So far, no complicated dilemmas!!

[wannabegeek]

Well I must say that I did not expect this forum to be so helpful, but wow. I'm sure I'll be back for more once the build gets underway. Thanks!

[zburns]

wannabegeek:

Really bad news today in case you have not heard. Intel has recalled the chipset, Cougar Point which, as I understand it is part of the P67 chipset which is the mobo chipset for the Gigabyte mobo I have recommended to you. In fact Gigabyte has recalled all their P67 mobos and offered new replacements that include the Intel fix. The bad news is availability not until April, worst case.

If you will go to the Forum main page, then Motherboards, then Sandy Bridge and click on Sandy Bridge. Ricky Tick and myself have two separate posts at the bottom of the page that have a total of three links to articles about the problem including the Gigabyte recall. This is all news to us in the last day or two. I suppose the dust will settle and we will all know the full story in several days.

In effect, Sandy Bridge appears to be delayed until worst case, April. There is no problem with the Sandy Bridge cpu, just the P67 chipset that goes on the motherboards with the Sandy Bridge cpu.