Required space for propoer air flow

[MagicAnt]

I'm getting the COOLER MASTER HAF X RC-942-KKN1 case and it has fans on the top.
About how much minimum space is needed for proper airflow? The case is pretty high and their probably won't be much room from the top of the case to the underside of my desk/keyboard tray.

Also, I'm getting the CoolIT Systems VAN-R120 Vantage A.L.C. CPU Cooler. I was hoping to install it's fan in one of the top fan locations of the case. But I believe the CPU cooler is a 120mm fan and the top case fans are 200mm. IS there a way for me to mount the 120mm fan in the 200mm slot?

Thank you.

[RickyTick]

No, it doesn't go to the top fan. It will use the rear case fan.
Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBNE0ldpzuI

[zburns]

I am guessing but you probably need 3 to 4 inches clear at the top, and then you should put an inverted "V" above the fan portal to deflect the outward air flow in two "opposite directions", or if one direction is blocked off, you could use just a single deflector at an angle. If this discussion does not make sense to you, tell me and I will do a quick drawing and post it for a more clear explanation.

To give you an example of what I am saying, about 1 1/2 years ago, I had my Antec Sonata 500 case, sitting perpendicular to the wall behind my monitor. Back of case about 2 or 3 inches off the wall; cpu temps in the idle mode seemed high. I make a cardboard 'V' shaped deflector, taped it to the wall and temps dropped some, not sure I remember how much. The deflector sent the air to the right and left instead of straight into the wall. Best if the sides of the 'V' are caved in (rounded) a little.

The V shaped deflector is not 100% efficient; ie it is not as good as having a wide open space behind the case where the air can move unimpeded. Right now what I do with my case (not using the deflector) is to turn the case to about a 45 degree angle with respect to the back wall. That does a good job also for the rear (and only) fan.

This idea is better than just letting your fan blow directly at a flat surface which creates turbulence right above the fan and reduces the output flow of the air. If you have a Zalman type fan cpu cooler that blows horizontal (parallel to case top and bottom), the rear case fan should be in line with the CPU and, therefore, it is in line with the Zalman fan, and the rear case fan is absolutely necessary for cpu cooling.

With your situation, the case under the desktop, even with 6 inches clear at the top and the 200 mm fan, you cannot predict the 'quality of the air flow' against a flat surface above the fan; again the V deflector is better than nothing providing you have two directions for the air to go too.

The points I am making in this post are accurate in my opinion, and they may help your situation. The rear fan is necessary to the extent that it is wholly responsible for the CPU cooling per the example I gave above. Other fans not like the Zalman may not direct the air toward the rear fan and then the analysis changes depending on the air flow to cool the cpu.

[MagicAnt]

Well the case just arrived today and it looks like I will not have room for it under my desk. So I either have to re-do my layout or get a new computer desk. Oh well, I will work something out.

Not to change the original question of the thread but can someone help me with how I should set up air flow in my case? I am a little unsure. Below is what I will have:


- FRONT: one 230mm fan
- REAR: one 140mm fan (will have to be replaced with CPU liquid cooler fan which I believe is 120mm - I hope it fits/can be mounted)
- TOP: two 200mm fans
- SIDE: one 200mm fan
- Power Supply: Small fan on short side (facing out back of case) / Large fan at top

Will the airflow be set up this way:

- FRONT: Intake
- SIDE: Intake
- REAR (CPU cooler fan): Exhaust
- BOTH TOP FANS: Exhaust
- Power Supply: Small fan at back of case - Intake ???
Large fan at top: Exhaust (blows air into case) ???

Thank you.

[zburns]

MagicAnt, In my post above, I did it on the fly real quick and just did not look at your cooler which was staring me in the face. But the data I did provide is real, based on what I did. Now to your specific question. Your case has two top 200 mm fans and the top rear fan. I believe these three fans are definitely exhaust fans. The top fans are the main exhaust fans and the rear fan exhaust the upper back rear area and is a 'supplemental' fan to pick up 'stray turbulent air' caused by the square corners.

Not sure about the side fan without researching it. Video cards have their own fans, and the large side fan blowing directly on the video cards or even close to them may disrupt the effectiveness of the video card fans. Power supply fan is for the PSU; blows air out the back of the case, sucks it in thru a front grill and over the psu components. Front large fan is intake and probably necessary to get enough air flow into the case to accomodate the top fans and the rear fan.

The side fan is the only one I am curious about. I tried to find some reviews under actual operating conditions but could not. I will look again tomorrow and do another post to confirm what I said above and anything new I pick up. Your top fans and the rear fan are 'what cause the case to be cooled'. They do not need to be restricted by shelves and the case being too close to a wall, etc., my opinion. My impression is that the two top and the rear fan are intended to really 'change the air inside the case' at a rapid rate.

[RickyTick]

Air Flow
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk156/Mike-Echo/HAFX_ProuctHighlight_r2_0607.jpg

[MagicAnt]

Thank you very much. That is very helpful.
So I believe then I will replace the rear fan with the fan/radiator of the liquid CPU cooler, and orient it so it blows air out the back of the case.

And I assume when I install my power supply, at the bottom of the case, I should orient it so the large fan (which will be inside the case) will face up, into the case, and not down at the bottom of the case (since not much room below case).

[zburns]

Not sure what you mean by " . . . . I should orient it so the large fan . . . ". The psu mounts so that the fan on the psu rear fits the small rect opening at the bottom of the case. If by 'large fan' you mean the 'side' fan, it has a hood on it which is positioned to direct air where the designers meant for it to go with respect to the psu and the video cards. One purpose of the large fan is to 'blast' hot air from the various crevices, etc. formed by the lower installed components. The large fans on top then remove the "air stirred up at the bottom". If the manufacturer designed the case with some reasons to aim or rotate the side fan, they would tell under what conditions to move it around.

[MagicAnt]

By large side fan I mean fan on PSU. If you google the Corsair AX1200 (sorry I don't know how to post pictures) you will see that there is a vent on the small side of the PSU, the side that faces out the back of the case (same side that has the outllet and power switch). But there is also a larger fan on the side of the PSU casing, which I believe can be orientate to face the bottom of the case or up towards the top, depending which way you install the PSU. I'm asking if that fan should face into the case. Hope I'm being clear.

Thank you.

[RickyTick]

I'm fairly sure that the psu is only going in your case 1 way. I don't know that you'll have options on how to orient it. I could be wrong.

[RickyTick]

Check this out.
http://www.3dgameman.com/reviews/1153/cooler-master-haf-x-case

[zburns]

The rear grill with the power plug and switch face out the back of the case, with power plug and switch on your right as you look at the back of the case from the rear. The large fan is in the 'top' of the psu housing and it 'sucks' air 'into' the psu case and blows it directly down on the heatsinks of the power transistors, SCRs (whatever they are) and the exhaust air is thru the rear grill.

The side fan on the case, that I talked about in my last post I think, has a curved cowling that looks like it would force air downward toward the bottom of the case directly on top of the PSU fan which is "drawing" air into the PSU.

Ricky is right. It can only be installed one way.
SS

[RickyTick]

The side fan on the case, that I talked about in my last post I think, has a curved cowling that looks like it would force air downward toward the bottom of the case directly on top of the PSU fan which is "drawing" air into the PSU.


You may be right, but I thought it was to blow air directly on the video cards.

[zburns]

Hi Ricky, You're right about the video cards. I looked at all the pics at same time. Thats when I saw the curved cowling which looks like it sticks out about 2 inches. The video cards stop about 2-3 inches from the opposite case side. But that cowling does not stick out or down very far and a lot of the fan blows straight out directly at the video card area. Any PSU you would put in the case would have the top psu fan , so Coolermaster would take 'air supply' down low into account. The only way to really know is if you have the case and test it. When they designed the case they had to take into account 'decent air supply' above the PSU. So the location of the side fan could be so placed to handle the video cards plus force air into the psu area. But that 1200 watt psu better have some cool air consistently above it, so there has to be some airflow in a consistent pattern down there.

The case is an interesting design from a cooling viewpoint. So much clutter in the bottom and lots of rectangular components and case parts. Solution, just blast cool air straight into it, no organized 'airflow' path until you turn on the two large fans above creating a overwhelming negative pressure in the top of the case which causes the lower air to 'rush upwards' but in a consistent pattern. The combination of the several lower fans plus the huge side fan keeps everything cooled to the 'desired design'. They prove that the design works by placing thermocouples thruout the case and read the temps at multiple times from startup to full multiple video card output. All this is how I see it working; it is the only logical way it works.

The short answer to your question is "that's what it looked like to me". Did you notice the little tunnel to direct air from the front into the front end of the video cards?

[MagicAnt]

Thank you very much. That answers my question. I wasn't sure if it can only be installed one way or not, but either way I will have the large fan of the PSU face up into the case. Yea I noticed the tunnel you are talking about for the video cards. I'm only installing one video card at this time and it will be in the top pci express slot so it will not be too close to the PSU.

Thank you.

[MagicAnt]

Well the case and power supply have arrived. And the holes in my case actually allow the power supply to be installed either way (with the large fan of the PSU facing up, into the case, or with the large fan facing down, toward the bottom grill of the case. But I will intall it with the fan facing into the case as discussed above.

Thank you.

[zburns]

MagicAnt, My suggestion about 'fan face up' may be wrong. Go to this cooler master link (their usa home page): http://forums.mysuperpc.com/showthread.php?1642-Recommendations-Budget-Build ----Look at the thumbnails at the bottom of the page, go to the fourth one from the left; click on the enlarged thumbnail image and you get a fairly large image. You will see the PSU 'FACE DOWN' pointing toward the bottom grille. As important you see a video card in the last PCI slot and it is very close to top of the psu. This throws my theory out the door in that my explanation had to satisfy the condition of the psu fan having clear space above it for 'some reasonable distance'.

So you have to install the psu 'face down'. Since you are only installing one video card, you might get away with it facing up, but it would be hard to tell you how to "prove that facing up is the best way". Check your Case Manual and see what they say. See if they tell you the conditions under which you can install it face up; also, see if they tell you a "preferred way" if there is only one or two video cards installed.

If I am not being clear please tell me.

[MagicAnt]

Not sure I found the exact picture you were talking about but I did find a picture of the case with the PSU face down. But it diesn't look like there was much space under the case. Is that enough for proper airflow of the PSU fan?
My case actually comes with wheels. I think I might install those to raise the case up further off the ground and then install the PSU face down.

[zburns]

Your case is a full tower, correct? My reference to the thumbnail picture is for HAF 922, I guess, a mid tower which compresses the distance from psu to video card -- it was the mid tower thumbnail picture I looked at. It does not matter which way you install it, MAYBE. No way to tell right now for sure. If there is plenty of the case Side Fan below the level of the only video card you install, I would think you could put it in face up as previously discussed.

Check your manual and see what CoolerMaster says. Regardless of what you do, you can turn it over very easily if you find you want too. Your comment above regards 'not much space' and you are right, there is not much space. Also, if the psu fan is 'sucking air into the psu guts', then a loose piece of paper underneath the case can be sucked up to the grille and essentially block the air flow.

Base on this I would find out CoolerMaster's intent on the design. I am sending this but I will probably add a EDIT in a few minutes.

EDIT: I have looked at the Coolermaster webpage for your tower, COOLER MASTER HAF X RC-942-KKN1. There appears to be approximately, at least, 1.75" to 2" of the lower half of the side case fan below where the bottom side of the last video card in the last PCI slot would install (you can barely see the last black PCI Express slot in the picture of the case with two video cards.). So I think face up will work. As long as you only have one card or two cards in it, it should work. That side fan is going to pump a lot of air into the void between the top of the psu and the bottom of the single video card. With three cards installed, I am estimating, but there should still be a gap of 1.75 to 2 inches between psu and bottom of third video card. Since you have the case you could actually measure it. They ought to cover this in the manual.

[MagicAnt]

I checked my case and the PSU. Yse there is one hole offset on the PSU. By my case has regular spaced and offset holes on both sides allowing me to install it which ever way I prefer (this is probably not the "case" on alot of PC cases.

I've searched a little on the internet and this seems to be a hot topic with no definite answers. Below are some responses I saw from different websites:

-----------------------------------

I would have the Seasonic 620W Modular installed with the fan facing up.

Reasons:
1. The laminate flooring is very easy to clean but floor almost always has more dust. A filter should be used if the PSU fan is facing down.But I would avoid this all together and will only consider it if the case is placed on top of a desk

2. Personally I do not like such a small air passage between the floor and the case bottom. It is probably more than 1cm, closer to 2cm as there are 2 raised strips of foam/rubber on the case interior bottom.

3. There is only 1 graphic card and it is installed in slot #3 (ie top blue slot) of the Gigabyte X58A UD3R. The distance between it and the PSU is quite large. This allows sufficient air to go between them, thus easily reaching the PSU fan. The PSU fan can even actually assist to create the air flow, starting from the case intake fan.

----------------------------------------------------------

Mine does have a vent hole at the bottom :-) I'm just wondering if it'll suck in dust (going to use the castors to raise height) And if better for the PSU fan to stick up and suck air from inside the case to outside (PSU is not on the top)

----------------------------------------------------------

Fan pointing down be best so it gets air from out side of the case and not from were the video card.

As if you put the fan upside depending on the cooler on your v card you be starving the v card or even the PSU for air or even just dragging hot air in from the v card.

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Yea, point towards bottom to get air from outside of case, but id recommend a dust filter or something.

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You may also want to add an additional fan at the rear of the PC that blows the air out of the back. This additional fan in the rear may not be necessary if the power supply has an intake fan inside the case that can pull that warm air out.

[zburns]

The first two posts sound more logical. Again, you must have a manual; I would be suprised if the manual did not say something. I notice the first internet post says what I say about the space available. Adding a filter at the bottom and adding a fan in the rear (there is no room) are not ideas or conditions that CoolerMaster would agree with; they have covered the bases for the psu install. I am guessing they say install it inside facing up. Easy to find out!

[MagicAnt]

Thank you for the research zburns. I posted my last post before reading what you said.

I looked at the cooler master manual (it is not very big or descriptive) and it just says "PSU bottom fan can be set up facing up/down to accommodate any PSU type." I guess when I get to actually building this I will see how much space I have from the PSU and Video card and decide then. You are right that the side fan will probably bring in alot of air in between the video card and PSU so it shouldn't be an issue of the PSU sucking in hot air from the card.

Anyone interested can download the manual for my case from here: http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/upload/download/208/files/HAF%20X-manual.pdf

But also, if I do install the wheels on the case I will have a bit more room to have the PSU suck air from below the case.

I also checked my PSU manual and it just says to follow the instructions in the chasis manual for installation.

I think I'm leaning toward installing the fan up into the case. But I'll see.



Thanks again for all your help.

[zburns]

I would be careful about pointing it downward. My comment about the paper getting sucked up to the underside grille is a real possibility and it could happen, you might not know it until heat had damaged the psu first (but it expensive enough that it will have a safety shut off); anyway it is not a good idea to point it downward. Remember the psu fan is 'sucking air inward', the fan is not blowing out the psu grill, the air is being sucked into the psu grill from outside. -- therefore, it will pick up a piece of loose paper.

EDIT: The coolermaster 1200 watt psu has a top grille just as yours does.

[MagicAnt]

I actually just took at look at my current computer (which I didn't build) and realized that the PSU is mounted with the fan facing down. Now in this case, first note that the motherboard is mounted backwards (the way the case was designed) which is why the PSU is on the right side of the case instead of the left. Also, the PSU is raised off the bottom of the case a little (it won't be raised with my current case for the new build) and is also in a separate chamber.

The opening at the bottom of the case for airflow is actually offset a little and not directly below the PSU, and there is also not much room below the case.

Now I regularly clean out the entire inside of my computer and components with compressed air, etc. But apparently fan facing down has worked fine in this case.

Although I still believe I will keep fan facing up in my new build.

Here is an image of my current PSU. Hard to tell from the picture that the fan is facing down but I just checked and it is.
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5163/dsc00006x.jpg

[zburns]

On balance, it is not a good idea unless CoolerMaster tells you a reason why you should do it. If the psu fan were blowing air out of the psu, thru the grille, at the floor, not a problem. But your fan is sucking air in (and the dust) and spraying your 'Gold' psu with dust and dirt all over the internal components. I may be exaggerating some but the psu will get more dirt and dust inside pointed thru the grill than the opposite direction. Again, it does not matter how you do it right now, except that all your plug in cables are going to be stacked one on top of the other. If you turn the psu over later, you will probably have to mess with the cables a little.

[MagicAnt]

Well I just watched a HOW TO video on the cooler master website for my case and he showed how to install everything into the case. Although he did not say anything about it, he installed the PSU with the large fan facing down, at the bottom of the case. I wish he would have commented on it.

[zburns]

I just watched it. Since it is from CoolerMaster, you have to assume they want it installed that way, so I would do it that way and then find out from them if it really matters. Somebody at CoolerMaster has to be able to tell you that yes it is better to draw outside unfiltered air from the bottom as compared to using the air between the lower video cards and the top of the psu. Somebody there knows the preferred way and why it is done that way. Being new it is possible they made an error in the video; particularly when they did not address it verbally. Their engineering dept should have temperature results from testing the psu location both ways under full video card load, which I guess could be up to three or even four cards (but with this many cards, surely you would use liquid cooling on the cards).

So as I said, maybe best to do it according to the video and get a specific answer from Coolermaster.

[MagicAnt]

I checked the case and there is a dust filter at the bottom of the case, so it looks like it is meant that way. But I just sent an e-mail to coolermaster tech support (don't know why I didn't do it earlier). I'll see what there response is and let you know.

Thanks.

[Deneb]

CORSAIR Professional Series AX1200 1200W ATX12V v2.31 / EPS12V v2.92 SLI Certified 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139014&Tpk=Corsair%20AX1200

COOLER MASTER HAF X RC-942-KKN1 Black Steel/ Plastic ATX Full Tower Computer Case

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119225&Tpk=COOLER%20MASTER%20HAF%20X%20RC-942-KKN1



“And I assume when I install my power supply, at the bottom of the case, I should orient it so the large fan (which will be inside the case) will face up, into the case, and not down at the bottom of the case (since not much room below case).”

I would think that you would want the one on 140 mm fan in the PSU to point up.



“Not to change the original question of the thread but can someone help me with how I should set up air flow in my case? I am a little unsure. Below is what I will have:”


Computer case cooling and fan orientation

http://forums.mysuperpc.com/showthread.php?3785-Computer-case-cooling-and-fan-orientation

[zburns]

This conversation needs to be kept logical. The links in Deneb's post are all for small cases. MagicAnt's case is huge, a full tower case (COOLER MASTER HAF X RC-942-KKN1). Looking at the picture that comes up with this link: http://www.coolermaster.com/product.php?product_id=6653 , one can see that the mobo with its liquid cooler occupies the 'back two thirds' of the cabinet volume, the right side of the top one-third being the 5" wide drive area (which generates negligible heat). This wide open space on the top left above the video cards, with the capacity for two 200mm fans running at an 'appropriate speed' ACTS AS A CHIMNEY over the fireplace, the fireplace being the one to three (or four?) video cards below, and the PSU.

Note that this case is a FULL TOWER case, not the mid tower Haf 922, etc. . Since it is full tower, there is more room below the video cards. About one-half of the side case fan -- the lower half -- blows directly into the area below the "lowest video card installation"; however, this observation is valid only for the size mobo in the coolermaster picture. If there is a larger extended mobo, that drops the video cards further down, that diminishes the area that the side fan blows directly into.

Assuming there is "a direct line of side fan air" into the area below the lowest video card (assuming three or four cards installed), that air flow should be sufficient for the PSU provided the correct amount of fans are used at the necessary speed -- only CoolerMaster knows this answer; I cannot believe they put this case on the market without a full analysis of the "best case cooling parameters" and the "worst case cooling parameters".

(A note on the 'cowling' on the side case fan -- if you look at the picture, the cowling is on the side of the fan. I at first thought it would direct some air in a downward direction; because the fan is close to the back panel, the cowling probably minimizes the amount of air going into the 'squared off' far back corner of the case resulting in 'useless turbulance in the back of the case -- once again CoolerMaster knows the purpose of that cowling on the side fan.

Deneb's para beginning with: "When it comes to case size pretty much taller and deeper is better. ..." is all correct. But these comments are all tradeoffs -- for example, with the full tower HAF X RC-942-KKN1, if worst case heat is with 4 video cards in 4 way SLI, then, I assume one would need two top fans installed and running at full speed to max cool the case -- again CoolerMaster should have 'worst case data' on something like this example. MagicAnt is only running one video card, so maybe one top fan will do it, but he can add a second one and improve lower case cooling. When I say 'all tradeoffs', I mean 'if there is a ton of heat generated, you have to run the fans fast, and you have to put up with the input dust, etc., and clean the filters, blow it out more often'.

Regarding the PSU cooling, MagicAnt after his computer is built and running can simply lay a simple thermometer about 2 cm above the PSU fan and see what the ambient temp of the incoming PSU air is, under his one video card running at maximum settings. If he wishes, he can also then turn the PSU upside down, repeat the same test with a thermometer in the same location and see what the ambient temp is then; if they are close, then he is ok with the PSU facing upward with the fan, etc.. If there is a big difference, the PSU should face downward (the negatives being dust and, the case being too close to the surface it sits on causing dimished air flow to the psu fan.) These comments generate questions for CoolerMaster who should already have the answers to the questions I pose.
Last edited by zburns; Today at 01:46 PM.

[RickyTick]

FWIW
CoolerMaster HAF
High
Air
Flow

[zburns]

OK, IN keeping with Ricky's discovery, I will add one of my own. This link is for a TweakTown review of the HAF 942 Case. I like it not for the review wording, but the pictures are better than the CoolerMaster Website. Here is the link: http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/3305/cooler_master_haf_x_rc_942_kkn1_full_tower_case_pr eview/index5.html

I finally can see a picture of the floor of the case; about half the floor is open grille. MagicAnt says that there is a filter down here but I do not see one. What is interesting about the floor grille is that it is a 'air source' for the 'chimney effect' created by the two monster fans mounted at the top. The air coming in from the front of the case may be deflected (by components) to the extent more 'air entry' is required at the bottom, hence, the floor grille. But if it has not got a decent filter, it is a source for dust (and dirt particles if on the floor). There are even 'rubber standoffs' to cause the PSU (mounted either way) to not be flush against the grille; the only reason is to allow the suction from the two top fans to pull air from the bottom of the case thru the grille (and not have the PSU block the incoming air).

All that aside, it still appears to be a great case if you are building a monster gaming outfit.

[MagicAnt]

Thank you all for the informative answers. I am still waiting for a response from coolermaster. Note that the case does come with just one top fan but I did order a second one so I will have 2.
In the link provided above, it looks like the filter is not in place in that picture of the bottom of the case, or maybe just hard to see. But I checked my case and there definately is a filter.

[zburns]

Is the filter a 'mesh' filter, flat plastic with openings a little less than 1/16 inch in diameter?

[MagicAnt]

I think that pretty well describes it. I took a picture with a piece of paper under it so you can see it:

http://img836.imageshack.us/f/coolermasterbottomfilte.jpg/

[zburns]

If you don't mind, measure the width of the mesh at its narrowest point -- where it slopes inward and is flat for about one inch and then slopes outward. On the one inch plus line a little tab about 3 holes high and wide sticks out both sides. I want the width without including the two tabs. I should be clear, I hope. Tell you why after you get back to me, thanks.

[MagicAnt]

To answer your question, it measures 3 inches at that point. I've made a sketch:

http://img813.imageshack.us/f/coolermasterbottomofcas.jpg/

[zburns]

I have messed up two posts (lost them) in the last hour. This will be short and I will add to it in the morning. Your mesh filter holes are 2.5 times larger than the mesh filter in my Sonata case. Facing the psu downward even tho it is spaced up off the case floor by about one half inch just puts it too close to dirt and dust coming thru that filter. You can come up with a supplemental filter to cover the psu, but that means fairly frequent cleaning maintenance. And, you need to hear what CoolerMaster says about it.

Letting the psu face upward means the psu gets air from the front, the side and the bottom. If all the input filter meshes are the same (roughly 1/16 inch holes), then the same problem exists all over the bottom of the cabinet.

EDIT, 11:30pm. Thought of something else that may help explain things. If your case side fan has the same size mesh filter, this may explain the bottom mesh. The two top fans (and cpu rear fan) move a lot of air and the lower part of the case has to supply that air. So the mesh filter for side fan and mesh filter at bottom (also the front air intakes) are sized to fit the cfm of the two top fans at full speed (also the 140 mm cpu top rear fan).

[MagicAnt]

That makes sense. I took another look at the manual for the HAF X and there is one picture of the power supply in the case with the fan facing up, although there is no mention of it at all. Hopefully tomorrow I will get a response from coolermaster. But it sounds like I will be fine if I install it with the fan facing up.

[zburns]

For the HAF cases that are mid tower, there are pics showing psu facing upward; also, true of your case. What the larger filter mesh holes mean is that you will probaby have to clean (blow) out your case more often. Maybe it will be easy to inspect your psu for dust build up; you might be able to take out the four screws coming thru the rear and rotate the psu 45 to 60 degrees (to face outward and get a good look) with the cables plugged into it. I would just try it for some weeks and take a look at it.
--------------------------
Change the Subject: Want to make one comment about your plug in cables to the modular psu. These look like the highest voltage rated plugs; the 'high voltage rating' is unnecessary but the 'pin shroud' is what the mfg wants you to have. Each pin is protected by its own separate housing (shroud) that surrounds the pin and they are using this high end type of plug to make them go together easier. When you start to insert one, you should be able to tell by 'feel' when it is 'started'. By looking at the plug you can see how far it has to go in to be completely seated.

The reason I even mention this subject is to say "do not use a small screwdriver or needle nose pliers to try to 'fix a pin, male or female' -- do not stick anything into the individual pin socket, male or female, in an effort to repair a 'perceived problem'. The more pins in a plug you are starting to insert the more pressure it will take to push it in -- again you can tell by 'feel' that things are ok. (If you mess with the pins -- percieved problem kind of thing -- you run the risk of a poor connection and a electrical problem down the road with the psu)

[MagicAnt]

Well no reply from coolermaster yet. We'll see.

Thanks for the advice on the power supply. I am not planning to mess with any pins. I will be careful when insterting connectors and make sure I am straight and put even pressure until it is seated properly.
On another note, I had thought about doing the paper clip test to try and tes the PSU before hooking it up to the motherboard, etc. Do you think that is not a good idea? Also, I know you are supposed to connect the green wire to the black wire, but all the wires on my connectors are covered in black. I believe the green pin is standard for all 24 pin ATX plugs, and I see in the motherboard manual which pin is PS-ON. What do you think?

[zburns]

That is their GOLD rated PSU and its 1200 watts. The +12 v rail is a single voltage rail with a current output of 100.4 amps -- that is a small minature welding machine (I am not kidding). At these levels trying to test it is dangerous from several viewpoints. That current output is lethal; put your hands in the wrong places and it can kill. Make any kind of mistake with it that draws a large arc and you will probably have ruined the psu. The protection circuits will not work if the 12v rail is accidentally shorted to ground even for a millisecond; such an accident would unequivocally destroy some component(s).

It only draws about 12 to 13 amps on the 110vac side, but you are messing with the secondary and that is dangerous. Strongly suggest you do not do it. I am very serious when I say it is a bad idea; it is just way too powerful.

I promise you they tested it rigorously before shipping it. It is a small device, easy to pack so that it is almost impossible to damage it in shipping, unless the box was run over by something.

[MagicAnt]

It looks to be in perfect order. Ok I won't test it. I'll wait until I have it hooked up in the computer and hope everything works fine. Thank you.

[MagicAnt]

Well still no reply from coolermaster and I e-mailed their sales department and tech support.

I looked at this website again with the review of the HAF X
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/3305/cooler_master_haf_x_rc_942_kkn1_full_tower_case_pr eview/index.html

They had these few things to say about the power supply:

-------------------------------------------
As shipped the HAF-X is supported by two side rails made of plastic that have rubber pads for anti-skid. Inside the chassis you will find casters that go in each corner in the screw holes provided. The power supply area is well ventilated and should make any PSU comfortable and breathing easy.

Near the floor you can see a large hole for passing wires behind the tray and above a series of slots and holes. These are for the adjustable wiring and power supply cover. The floor itself has two long rubber pads to support the PSU over the ventilated floor.

As shipped the HAF-X is supported by two side rails made of plastic that have rubber pads for anti-skid. Inside the chassis you will find casters that go in each corner in the screw holes provided. The power supply area is well ventilated and should make any PSU comfortable and breathing easy.
-------------------------------------------

And although they don't specifically mention the orientation of the PSU, on page 7 of the review, in the picture of the final build there is no fan on the top of the PSU which leads me to below they have installed it face down.

I still think I am going to install it face up but I would like to get an answer from coolermaster.

[MagicAnt]

Well I received a reply from coolermaster. They said:

Our recommendation is for the fan to be facing down. The room it has at the bottom of the case is sufficient for it to grab and air and exhaust it towards the back of the case. Routine cleaning of the pc should also include the power supply should dust be a problem. If you have any other questions, please let us know.

So maybe I should give that a try. If I install wheels and clean regularly, I should be ok. I keep my apartment very clean. I don't smoke or have any pets and I'm careful to keep the floors clean and not let any loose papers fly around. The case will be on either a tile floor, or if over my rug will be on top of one of those plastic chair mats.

[zburns]

That is fine; I am glad they finally responded. When you install the plug in cables into the psu, I suggest you be certain the psu can be rotated 90 degrees and a little more to give you access to the psu guts so you can blow the dust out. You do not want to be unplugging and replugging any cables. So after the cables are plugged in just make sure you can rotate it with the cables attached.

I was going to 'post' on another topic on your case earlier today and did not get to it. The slots for 5 inch drives at the front of the case all are covered with the mesh and none of the slot openings are covered up. So unless you fill up all the slots with 5 inch drives, you will have large air intake openings each place intended for a drive. On the Tweaktown webpage for the case, I could see from inside the case thru the empty top front. So maybe they provide snap in covers to blank over the unused areas. You cannot leave any of them wide open because the air intake will go right up to the top fans and decrease the pull on air from below.

[MagicAnt]

I will take your advice on the power supply. Thank you.

The case did not come with any solid covers to cover the drive openings. They are all mesh. In a review of the case they said:

"The front of the chassis is well ventilated. All of the bay covers are ventilated and have thin foam for a dust filter."

Behind those mesh covers there is a solid piece of metal with small holes in it. You have to break off the metal piece to install a drive. So unused slots will have the metal behind the mesh, therefore they are not wide open, but do allow for ventilation.

One of my concerns has been the lquid CPU cooler I got (CoolIT Systems VAN-R120 Vantage). I believe that fan is an intake to bring air in over the radiator. As I will be installing this in the rear of the case, I am replacing the existing rear exhaust fan with an intake fan. Do you think this will cause issues? I will have two 200mm fans exhausting out the top (the only exhause in the case) so I suppose these will be pretty strong. What do you think?

Perhaps I could install a PCI Slot fan in one of the lower unused slots at the rear of the case:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835200019&cm_re=pci_slot_case_cooler-_-35-200-019-_-Product

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835114024&cm_re=pci_slot_fan-_-35-114-024-_-Product

Unless I'm wrong and the CPU cooler fan does exhaust air. I will have to try and research it.

[zburns]

My short answer is that I think you are correct. If the hoses coming off the cpu are only short enough to reach the back fan opening, this would mean the designer had in mind ATX Cases and ATX mobos, meaning that dimension between center of the cpu and the rear fan opening is fixed. But on the other hand, the radiator and the its fan can exhaust out the opening as well as suck air in. If the radiator fan was set up to exhaust out the back, its air input would have to come from the 'air stream' coming from the bottom up to the top fan, which I do not think can happen or would work. The radiator fan exhausting out the back would be starved for air would be my concern. Should be able to confirm which way over the net.

[RickyTick]

The CoolIT Vantage is designed to "push" air out of the back of the case, not pull outside air in.

[zburns]

Actually, according to a Tweaktown review, the Vantage cooler can be configured for push or pull due to the unique design of the fan/radiator/spacer assembly. There are two reviews I read, here is the first link, Tweaktown (talks about push/pull): http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/3431/coolit_systems_vantage_a_l_c_cpu_cooler/index.htm Next link is entitled 'Funky Kit': http://www.funkykit.com/component/content/article/5425-review-coolit-vantage-alc-liquid-cpu-cooler.html Regardless of the silly names, they are both pretty good reviews, but the Tweaktown specifically addresses 'Push/Pull' on the radiator/fan/spacer assembly.

Here is the link to the installation manual which has no mention of the radiator/fan/spacer assembly except for one picture: http://www.coolitsystems.com/rokdownloads/manuals/vantage-manual.pdf
--------------------------------

My comments: This is a unique case, large and spacious. The air flow patterns tend to be obvious if one just looks at it for awhile. While I am fairly certain I can see the basic air flow pattern, since all the fans are variable speed, I cannot work all those combinations into a firm conclusion. What I cannot tell anything about is the cooler fan being exhaust or intake because the strength of the cooler fan on low, medium or high in relation to the various speeds of the two top (case) fans is not known.

For example, (cooler fan configured for exhaust) if the two top fans are running at top speed, and the cpu cooler fan is running at any of its three speeds (that fan clicks up automatically to a higher speed depending on cpu temp) here is the possible senario: the cooler fan wants to blow outward, the top fans at top speed are sucking bottom air up at the fastest rate. Question: Do the top fans create such airspeed (wind shear across the input surface of the cpu fan) coming up that the exhaust fan cannot draw sufficient air -- the top speed of the top fans inhibit the speed of the exhaust fan. Reverse the senario where the top fans are at their slowest speed, then, maybe the 'push' of the exhaust fan works fine. What happens at medium speed of the top fans?

If, however, you use the Vantage in a pull senario, sucking air into the cabinet from the outside rear, the updraft due to the top fans will literally suck air from the cpu fan blowing into the case. Regardless of the top fan speed, with the cpu fan pulling air in, it is logical to assume the top fans will (at any speed) not impede (but help), the cpu fan to blow air across the radiator -- again air being pulled into the cabinet via the cpu radiator fan pulling air into the case and the top fans helping it do so.

The above is all theory. MagicAnt can test this by running the various senarios and recording the data as he does it, including the cpu temperature. There will be a lot of possible combinations to run, however, when you lay it all out, some can be eliminated. When he actually runs the tests, he may see an early trend and that 'trend will make a firm statement' as to the relationship between the cooler and the top fans (their speed). The cpu temperature tells him what is working -- FOR SURE!!

It will take him several hours to run the tests; I do not see anyway out of it. Unless there is some credible source who has already done this using the same cooler and the same case with two top fans. Regardless of what the manufacturers of the case or the cooler say in an email or over the phone, this is a situation he (MagicAnt) has to figure out in real time with his build.

According to the reviews, the cooler electronics call for automatic increase of cooler fan speed as cpu temp goes up. This means he can test at a low cpu % usage and a medium cpu % usage with the cooler fan shoving air into the case. He repeats this test for whatever the top fan speeds will be under his real use conditions -- probably slow, medium and fast. This is a total of six tests.

He then reverses the cooler fan so that it exhausts air from the case and repeats the first set of tests, only with the cpu cooler blowing air out of the case. This is six more tests. He has to run the total number of tests that replicate the multiple ways the top fans work with the cooler fans; doing this tells him a lot about his computer, but better still he then knows the 'cooling factors' for his build, so that down the road, all that knowledge helps him understand 'much quicker and with less confusion' other technical problems he may run into.

Just guessing, I would predict blowing air into the case gives lower cpu temps -- this is all predicated on my mental image of the way the air flow in the case works. My point of all 'my chatter' is that theory is fine, but you have to prove what works in real time. The simple statement is 'that it all depends on the top fan air speed across the cooler fan surface and how that top fan air speed affects the volumn of air the cooler is moving across the radiator.

[RickyTick]

The video on CoolIT's website says it's designed as a "pusher".
http://www.coolitsystems.com/index.php/vantage.html

[MagicAnt]

Thank you all very much. I watched the video and you are right, it is supposed to be a pusher. Regarding speed, I believe you can seitch the vantage to performance mode to keep it running at top speed all the time. I will probably do this. I don't mind a little extra noise and I prefer my fans to be at top capacity all the time so I will have no issues. Maybe that is not the best idea, but it makes me feel comfortable. We will see.

Having seen it is a pusher, I wonder if I should buy a second fan for the vantage to replace the spacer and get the push/pull effect. I suppose that will help with CPU cooling?

[zburns]

In the video, the guy right after talking about the fan being a 'pusher' goes on to say that you can pull the spacer off and put your own 140mm fan of for a push/pull setup --one word for that idea, something called 'crazy'! The Vantage cooler is a radiator with a fan on one side of it, and the way the fluid cables are configured, you can take the spacer out and put the fan on the other side and have it draw air in from outside thru the radiator and into the case. With the fan installed on the inside pushing out, my point is that the two top fans running at high speed may limit the ability of the cooler fan to force enough air thru the radiator, thereby, causing the cpu temp to be higher. This is because the two top fans at high speed may create a negative pressure or a 'shear' force in the area of the cpu fan which would prevent it from 'pushing' as much air as it should thru the radiator.

To prove it or disprove it is real simple. Run the cpu fan in one direction and the top fans at three different speeds and measure the cpu temp.. Then run the cpu fan in the opposite direction, top fans at the same three different speeds and measure the cpu temp. The cpu temps will be, more than likely, be lower in one case and higher in the other. Use the cooler fan in the direction that gives lower cpu temps.

[MagicAnt]

So you think using 2 fans is crazy. Well regarding the case fans, it's true the 2 top fans will suck alot of air out, but aside from the front fan there is the side fan also acting as an intake. And near the front fan, a little further in from the case, there is a GPU duct in which I can install another fan to help push air into the case. I guess I will have to see.

[zburns]

I was referring to the idea of using push/pull fans on the radiator. Here is a link to Corsair's use of push/pull with some success but the two fans used were identical: http://blog.corsair.com/?p=987
In reference to your case, the two top fans are the reason your case will cool so well. I was simply suggesting that pulling air in from the back opening thru the radiator might get lower cpu temps because the top fans might help the radiator fan draw more air. There may be negative pressure in the area of the radiator/cooler fan assembly and that would help pull more air into the cabinet.

With the radiator fan blowing outward thru the radiator and the back of the case, that same negative pressure due to the two top fans MAY lessen the air supply for the radiator fan. Try it both ways and check the cpu temps to see which method is better. I am saying blowing air out of the back of the cabinet may prove to be "not as efficient in cooling" as blowing air into the cabinet from the back. Again, do it both ways and check cpu temps each time; that will prove which method is better.

[MagicAnt]

Ok I understand what you are saying. Thank you. I will have to try both ways and see what is better.

Thanks again.