Build a Multi track Machine

[pingratt]

Hi, new to the forum, looks like the place I've been looking for.
I'm not a gamer. But I do multi track music recording and need to
upgrade to a more powerful system.

Currently I run on an old Dell Dimension 4600 (Intel Pentium 4,
80532, 2.6GHz), and it can't handle what I want to do.
So I am looking at new systems,
the Dell Inspiron 570 MT (AMD Phenom II X4 820, 2.8GHz) and the
Dell Studio XPS 9000 (Intel Core i7-920, 2.66GHz).

But after seeing this forum, I'm thinking of building my own system.
I have plenty of electronics, and software experience, so know I can do it.
I just don't know much about how the different parts could or would improve
performance for my needs.
I have a Delta 1010LT PCI sound card I need to move to whatever new
system I go with, this is my recording interface, and a ton of 32 bit
recording apps and recording plugins (vst, vsti, directx) to be moved in as well.
My budget is in the range of $900, and I saw a nice post by The Wise Monkey
for a system called "A STEP ABOVE" that looks like a good starting point
for me.
Anyone here with multi track recording experience that could say I would
see significant performance improvements by going with something like
"A STEP ABOVE" (or the new Dells)?

[zburns]

Hello Pingratt and welcome to the forums. Did some research and here are some random comments based on your post. I do not have multi track recording experience as you do but I do have a reasonable understanding of the math and science behind music and the electronic analysis and representation of music.

First, please tell us the name (s) of your software that interfaces your multi trac mixer (hope I am using the right words) to your present computer. You have a ton of 32 bit recording apps; this implies or requires that you stay with 32 bit OS. The max memory for any single quad (dual) cpu is 16 gig of DDR3 memory but the OS has to be 64 bit to use this large amount of memory.

In addition to a relatively slow cpu, a lack of total memory capacity is probably slowing you up. There is a MAC system using two Xeon CPUs that supports up to 32 gig of DDR3 memory. Two Xeons would allow 32 gig of memory. I mentioned the MAC system because some months ago, as I remember it, Wise Monkey, a forum member discussed at length building a two CPU system using a server mobo, and he may have mentioned the MAC Xeon dual cpu system in that discussion.

I saw some comment in other forums comparing the i7 to the Xeon quad; comments favoring the i7 over the Xeon (I guess for speed), but other comments favoring the "toughness" of the Xeon in being able to handle repetitive large "hits" of energy for long periods of time; the implication being the "power duration capability of the Xeon" better than an i7.

The use of a lot of memory will speed your system up because the need to depend on HD (s) is lessened.

The most important question I have is how well your interface software "in actuality works with a quad". Meaning has your software designer/manufacturer optimized the software for multi threaded applications on the Intel or AMD quad cpus. This question goes right to the heart of “how fast your quad cpu” really operates to your benefit. This question also has an impact of just how much memory you can really use.

The digital representation of audio depends on the system replicating sine waves (and cosines) of different frequencies to simulate the actual audio waveform of every note. The end result is “an approximation” but an excellent approximation depending on the quality of the system. With a single quad system or a dual quad system, the interface software and the OS must work “perfectly” together to provide an output that is true to the original input. Knowing the “workings” of your software interface is really important at the speeds we are talking about.

Your budget is not a lot, but I imagine something can be worked up that will be a good improvement on what you presently have. I hate to be repetitive but your software interface/OS to a dual or quad cpu really matters as to getting benefit from multithreading.

[zburns]

I assume from looking at your sound card that your only "sound" software is Ableton Live Lite. Am I correct?

[pingratt]

Hello zburns, thanks for the reply.

My main sound software is currently ntrack (ntrack.com). I'm using the 32-bit version now because most of my supporting plugins are 32 bit (there is a 64 bit that I would only use if I could get my plugins as 64, but that might be a while). Also, I might change to one of the more upscale recording sw packages in the future, but still in 32 until my plugins catch up.
I have a lot of free plugins like for example FerricTDS that simulates some of the things recording to audio tape would do to sound. But the big hitters are things like Izotope Ozone that does all kinds of sound processing like compression and reverb simulations, and also I use PodFarm that simulates all manner of vacuum tube guitar amps and special effects. Adding them to the mix is what really drags down my current computer.

You are right on about how the sw works with specific processors is the important question. I will try to get more info from my main suppliers. This is really what I am hoping to learn here, thanks for the help.

My Delta 1010LT is the main interface card, uses old standard PCI slot. It has mic inputs and a number of audio inputs that I drive from external devices like my guitar amp sim system. They do have a beta driver for Windows 7.

But one other thing is that I also have external things that run thru USB ports. A drum pad machine and a keyboard that feeds midi to the computer via USB, and my guitar sim system has the option to use the USB instead of going thru the 1010LT. Due to the slowness of my current system, the USB stuff has too much latency to be of use.

[zburns]

In your last sentence you refer to USB ports. Where are these ports located? On your computer case (tower) or do you have a separate USB interface that goes or connects . . . where?

You also mention that your delta card is your main interface card. This implies that you also sometimes use other interface cards. Does this mean that you remove the delta card and plug in other interface cards?

[pingratt]

USBs are on computer case (no separate USB interface). My recording software knows how to connect to stuff from the USBs.

M-Audio Delta 1010LT card is the only interface card I use for recording, and playback for over dubs and mixing. It is really just a fancy sound card with 8 ins and 8 outs. I also have the sound card that came with the computer (Creative SB Live! Series (WDM)), but only use it for "other" stuff, like listening to internet radio, watching YouTube and such. When I move to a new system, the Delta will go in it as the only sound card.

[zburns]

You need to find out several important things about your present delta card. Is if fully compatible with Windows Vista and more important Windows 7. I found the install manual for the card, easily; the only software I saw mentioned high up was XP. Your card is an old design but modified thru the years as the OS changed.

Assuming it is an older design, the basic design may have to be "redone" in order to take advantage of quad processor speed. However, and this is important, the nature of analog to digital, then digital back to analog in "music" may not be "best served" by trying to split the digital processing between multiple processors (ie. dual, quad or virtual quad).

When you break up analog music data into digital music data, process it thru the CPU, and then put it back together from digital to analog -- there is a lot of data that has to be put back together at exactly the same point in time -- in order for the "final music" to sound the way it should. Doing all of this thru only "one" channel or one processor may be the best or only way.

Notwithstanding the above paragraph, the OS, and some elements of the control functions (not the actual musical data) for the music can run in parallel processors. This would mean there is still a benefit to a dual or quad CPU.

Your first question to the Delta tech folks should be something like this: Can the Delta card you have, or can a brand new delta card take "full" advantage of the multiple cores in a quad CPU, or does your card and Delta's current cards only take advantage or use only one processor of multiple processors in a quad (dual).

You could next ask if it is possible or practical to expect that A/D then D/A music synth can be done with parallel processing with dramatic shortening of processing time.

I am guessing that there is at least a small speed benefit in your application for a quad or dual, but not a major speed benefit as far as your music mixing, etc..

But a system with 64 bit processing will allow you lots of memory and that will help your speed. If you stay with 32 bit processing, you can use of to 4 gig in memory, but you will only get use of 3.5 gig in actuality, but that still is a vast improvement over what you presently have.

By going to 64 bit processing, you have lots of memory headroom, much more than you will probably be willing to pay for.

Another question to find out about is your present 32 bit plugins; can they become 64 bit plug ins simply by a "driver change".

It appears that present Delta boards run 32 or 64 bit, simply a driver selection.

[pingratt]

The Delta card is "partially" supported for Vista, Windows 7. They have a driver for Windows 7 32 bit and one for 64 bit, but are only providing "forum" support at this time. In the forum there are a number of people running the Delta under Windows 7.
Have not yet determined if my card would take "full" advantage of multiple cores. But I do see some issues, like they recommend:
Disable any CPU Throttling Utilities such as C1E, SpeedStep, and AMD's Cool 'n Quiet in the BIOS
But again, it looks like a number of people are running on multi core machines.

Most of my plugins are not 64 bit ready, but I am looking into the possibility there might be a wrapper of some kind that would allow me to run my main recording sw at 64 bit, and still use the 32 bit plugins. I'm thinking of doing a first install of 32 bit Windows 7, and install all my recording stuff, and then hit it hard with some huge complicated tracks, and see what it does. Currently with my Pentium 4, 80532, 2.6GHz, full playback of a complicated track is impossible, cpu meter built into my recording sw blows past 100%, and I start to hear ugly computer noise The recording sw and plugins are what really eat up the resources.

So the Delta card not fully using a multi core is probably not as important as a very fast cpu, with a good amount of memory.

[pingratt]

Here is my first pass at putting together this system.
I learned that my audio interface card will run on multi core machines, but does not take specific advantage of this. But my main recording software does take advantage of quad-core for recording large tracks as I am doing. And some of my other main recording plugins take some advantage of multi-core as well. And all of the above can run in 64-bit, and the additional plugins that do not, may be able to run under a wrapper called JBrudge. And if not, I will have to find replacements.

Here is my current list, and it is just under $1000 at this point, not too far off from where I want to be, I planned the keyboard/mouse/display purchase outside of this. . .

Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129024) Antec Sonata III with 500W Earthwatts PSU
CPU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115215) Intel Core i5-750 Lynnfield 2.66GHz
Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130239) MSI P55-GD65 LGA 1156 Intel P55 ATX Intel Motherboard
RAM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231189) G.SKILL 8GB (4 x 2GB) DDR3 1333
Hard Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136283) Western Digital Caviar Black WD7501AALS 750GB
Optical Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106335) LITE-ON Black 24X DVD+R 24X DVD-R SATA Black 24X DVD Writer LightScribe Support
Operating System (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116716&cm_re=windows_7_home_premium-_-32-116-716-_-Product" target="_blank">Operating System) Windows 7 Home Premium

No video card in the list yet, this will be dedicated to sound recording, so I won't need anything high end, am looking through what is out there. Any ideas?

[zburns]

I am curious, why did you choose MSI mobo. I looked up a nov 2009 review on it; USB 2.0 is on it. Newegg says USB 2.0 also. You can get mobos with USB 3.0, much faster; for example the Gigabyte GA-P55-USB3 (rev. 1.0) and it has the intel P55 chipset.

I was glad to see your post; I was going to do a post on a few things I had found out. One was your software company recommending a quad or dual cpu. They did not explain themselves but they must know it is an advantage.

(1)Another is to be sure and get USB 3.0, since your USB plug ins are running on 2.0 or worse; 3.0 will be a big speed boost. (what about all your present USB plug ins? Are they compatible with USB 3.0? Should be checked; call some of the suppliers for specific USB plug ins you presently have; give them the model and SN of the device; they should be able to tell you quickly if it will run on USB 3.0.

(2)Last, IEEE1394 (firewire), I would hope the highest and newest IEEE 1394 speed is on whatever mobo choice you make; it might be faster than USB 3.0; however, the question of any of your plug ins, now or later, being available with IEEE 1394 (instead of USB) is another question to be answered. Your new mobo regardless of mfg will accept USB and IEEE1394.

USB 3.0 and IEEE1394 (if your plug ins can run on this technology) are a big deal for what you are doing because both connection methods represent higher speed of operation.

Last, both Ricky Tick and Wise Monkey should comment on your final build choice; they know the hardware better than I do; they should say 'yay or nay' on the components. Your list is Ricky's list, I think, less the mobo choice.

[RickyTick]

I think zburns is right on the money as usual. I saw that MSI mobo too and wondered about that choice. There are plenty of mobos out there offering USB 3.0 at reasonable prices. Besides, I'm still miffed at MSI for taking 6 months to send me a rebate check. :mad:

Otherwise, I think your build looks fine as it is. One thing you might consider is possibly a different case and a more powerful power supply. If you're going to add a video card, sound card, and maybe something else, than you may need more than a 500 watt psu.

For a video card, take a look at the Radeon HD 5750. Nice card.

[zburns]

Pingratt, Ricky, all of you reading this. You have to look at this, just released four hours ago. Obsoletes USB 3.0? Look at this link: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/intels-light-peak-technology-could-kill-usb-30/

[zburns]

Pingratt, when did you buy your present machine, the Dell? Is it USB 2.0 and are all your plug in devices USB 2.0?

Here are two links on "backward compatability" for USB 3.0 and USB 2.0. Probably, older USB devices will run ok but they will run slower, something like that.

Anyhow, for backward compatability, the articles will talk about it in a more complete manner than I can: USB 3.0 is this link: http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/156416/usb_30_promises_faster_speeds_backward_compatibili ty.html

USB 2.0 is this link: http://www.everythingusb.com/usb2/faq.htm

[pingratt]

Thanks for all the great feedback.
As far as my choices, I am just learning about all of this,
look forward to putting together my first system, also I
am trying to keep within my budget.

All of my external devices (USB guitar system, USB keyboard,
USB drum pads) run USB 2.0. I doubt the suppliers will upgrade
to USB 3.0 or firewire soon, and doubt more that I will trade
in what I have for newer (different devices) for some time.
I got my old Dell in 2003, the device manager says they are
"Enhanced" and that is supposed to indicate USB 2.0.
From what I have read, 3.0 should be backward compatible
to 2.0 devices and their 2.0 cables. And that 2.0 devices
using 2.0 cable into 3.0 USB port should not be any slower
(but remains to be seen I suppose).

If I went with a mobo with 3.0 USB, do the USB cables for
mobo to case ports come with it, or are they with the case, or
something extra I will need to buy? Because USB 3.0 is a
different cable type than 2.0.

I looked at the Gigabyte GA-P55-USB3, it looks like what I
might go with. Cost less, has 2 USB 3.0s and 8 USB 2.0s.
I don't understand the price difference, there is the added
3.0s, some small PCIe differences, different audio and lan
chipsets. And less Rear Panel ports and no IEEE1394 (firewire)
on Gigabyte, thats probably it. I might need to go instead
with mobo (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128410) that adds the IEEE1394, but thats around $90 more.

For the power supply, my old Dell is loaded with cards, 2 optical
drives, 2 sound cards, vid, and powers some USB devices. I think
it is 300W power supply, so I would think 500W would handle the
new, but I will take a look at some of the higher watt case/ps
options.

I also looked at the HIS H575FN1GD Radeon, might go with that
for vid, thanks for the help so far.

[zburns]

Sorry to be so late responding. I will have to make several posts to cover what I am researching. This is the first one.

First another question to you. At one time, how many of your plugins to USB 2.0 would you be using simultaneously, ie. "plugged into your present Dell computer". The Giga byte board that I pointed out has 2 USB 3.0/2.0 and 8 USB 2.0/1.1 ports. If you use a lot of plug ins at the same time, would not these "two only" 3.0 ports be a limitation? This would mean you need a lot more 3.0 ports than just two ( I am being hypothetical since I do not know how many plug ins you may use simultaneously)

My original argument for firewire was based on comparisons to USB 2.0 or rather its reputation for slowness and your comment early on that your USB plug ins were part of the reason you were so slow.

USB 3.0 is much faster than USB 2.0. For a review on 3.0 vs 2.0, here is a review which is really a You Tube video presentation by a Gigabyte Technician in Taipei; little hard to understand him but you can and it is a test between 3.0 and 2.0 on the Giga mobo we are talking about. Click on this link for the main review page, then click on the link at the top of picture at the top of the page. It is about 6 minutes long. Here is the link: http://www.usbuniverse.info/usb-3-0-vs-usb-2-0-speed-test-at-gigabyte-with-new-ud6-mobo.html

There is another article ref comparing 3.0 to firewire that I have to "refind" but it is part of an ongoing argument between devotees of USB and IEEE1394 (firewire) about which one is going to "go away" and which one will last.

Now that USB 3.0 is out, there could be less emphasis on firewire (ieee1394); your plug in manufacturers will ultimately be the "deciders". I ran across "silentway.com" and saw their list of plug ins, maybe 60/40 or 70/30 in favor of USB vs firewire. The reason for "less emphasis" on firewire would be the much faster USB 3.0.

Regarding your third para in your post about 3.0 ports. The Antec sonata case, for example, has ON THE CASE FRONT two USB 2.0 ports, one IEEE 1394 port and two audio ports (looking at it right now). All the rear ports are mounted to the motherboard and line up with the "rear bezel" provided with the Sonata III Case (it is an ATX case). As long as the case is ATX, does not matter who the component mfgs are, they must meet ATX guidelines and specs as to "component lineup" with case dimensions. This applies to cases and components. The rear ports are soldered to the motherboard, and your cables plug directly into them.

The rear bezel is about two by five inches and fits into a hole in the rear panel of the case and has all the port openings for your motherboard.

There are motherboards with USB 3.0 and firewire ports; I think you alluded to that also.

I will give you a comment on the Power supply question also, but I want to check a Toms Hardware Guide first.

The question about firewire remains open. Based on Silentway.com, there are firewire plug ins out there. USB 3.0 is much faster than 2.0 which means present plug in suppliers may stick with USB if they already use USB. With faster CPUs, the plug in suppliers, I guess, would be desperate for something faster than USB 2.0 and 3.0 will probably be fast enough -- no way to know right now.

But the Firewire IEEE 1394 question remains open also; if it gets faster and faster, even moreso than USB 3.0, then maybe it becomes popular or dominant in your field -- but the experts are those that make the audio cards, the plugins, the software for the cards, etc..

My first question about how many plugins you would run simultaneously matters, so please let me know.

I have an Antec Sonata III case and 500 watt supply; it is a very nice case. I like it because I feel with the door it limits the dust intake into the case. If I were building another computer right now, I would get another Sonata III case assuming the 500 watt supply was enough and the door was no a "operational problem".

I wanted to point out that if you burn a lot of CDs on your present computer and will do the same on this new computer, then the door on the Sonata case may be a problem for you. That is generally the complaint we see or hear most often on the Sonata III case.

[pingratt]

When I talk about plugins, I mean software plugins that I load in (plugin) to my main recording sw. They do all kinds of things like add echo to a vocal track. None run thru the USB.
It is my external devices that connect thru the USB, and the recording sw is able to record from the external devices. Most provide just midi data that is recorded (like my drum pads and midi keyboard), but some actually provide the source instrument data (sound).
I will only be recording from one USB device at a time. My external USB devices are all 2.0, and I did not see any plans for the suppliers to upgrade to 3.0, I would have to replace the units I have, and will not do that anytime soon. But for future expansion, I think the two 3.0 ports might be of use. And one IEEE1394 (firewire), so I am now considering the GIGABYTE GA-P55A-UD6 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128410). Costs more but currently has a $30 mail in rebate. But, if I end up never using them, for the money I could instead have gone with something like a i7-860 Lynnfield instead of the i5, not sure if that would result in a noticable faster system. I will have to look more into it.

For the case, I looked at the supplier detailed photos. I see what you mean. I think I can live opening the door to burn CDs. I just need to remember not to close the door while buring, because I think my burn software ejects automatically when done. I do like the idea of keeping dust out.

[zburns]

That is probably a very good mobo choice. It actually has on the back panel 2 IEEE1394, 6 USB 2.0, 2 USB 3.0/2.0 and 2 eSata/USB combo connector. All this from the Gigabyte website. Again, the newegg spec page leaves stuff out. Even the Gigabyte page has an error calling out 6 USB 3.0 rear ports; it is really just 2 according to the online manual.

USB 3.0 at even higher speeds than it is now will probably become the norm for USB because everything is about speed thru the CPU's. Music is actually pretty slow (200 kilohertz max for high quality audio reproduction) compared to gigahertz operation of the cpus and memory.

Since USB 3.0 is new, manufacturers will access what they should do and react to it in due time. But the trend will be for more speed yet maintain accuracy.

Thanks for the info on USB devices into your computer. More later today on power supply.

[zburns]

Pingratt, I just finished a long post on the PSU. I have saved it and I will try to edit it down and then post it. Your proposed card mfg recommends a 450 watt power supply. The earthwatts 500 watt supply has two +12 volt outputs both rated at 17 amps. Trouble is your card mfg does not state the card specific amp requirements on the card. He implies it with saying 75 watts. If this is at +12volts, then the amp requirement is 6 to 7 amps, which should not be a problem. The Video card spec for watts and amp is incomplete in my opinion.

The gigabyte mobo has two +12 volt connectors, presumably each different from the other with separate and unknown amp requirements. It would be nice to know which 12 volt output the video card power plug from the PSU is wired too.

We have seen two or three problems with the 500 watt multiple rail Earthwatt supply in the last six to 10 months (computer crashing, larger psu solving the problem). I think you are ok with this supply but I would like to check further to be certain. Emails to Gigabyte USA and Antec USA should answer my questions.

I emphasize there is nothing wrong with the Earthwatts design. Very powerful video cards have been the cause of the problem I allude too. Like I said above I did a long analysis of the problem to date as I see it, and, I think contacting Antec and Gigabyte is an important step to take right away.

[zburns]

New Point: Have been meaning to mention this, but I do not believe your build list includes a cooler. Do you intend to use a intel stock cooler or another?

Back to the PSU Info: Here is a good review on your proposed video card. Go to this link: http://www.guru3d.com/article/his-radeon-hd-5750-iceq-review/1

The "Energy Consumption" is on page 8. The important bottom line is the following: "Recommended Power Supply
So here's my power supply recommendation:

Radeon HD 5750 (single GPU)

The card requires you to have a 500 Watt power supply unit at minimum if you use it in a high-end system. That power supply needs to have (in total accumulated) at least 40 Amps available on the +12 volts rails.
Radeon HD 5750 CrossfireX (dual GPUs)

A second card requires you to add another 108 Watts. You need a 600+ Watt power supply unit if you use it in a high-end system. That power supply needs to have (in total accumulated) at least 55 Amps available on the +12 volts rails.
For each card that you add, add another 100 Watts as a safety margin."

My comments: Note that he adds 100 watts as a safety margin. He is gun shy about recommendations on PSU/Video cards like a lot of others.

There is a possibility that the Earthwatts 500 watt supply will work fine, but it depends on how the 17 amp outputs of the two +12 volt rails are distributed.

If the video card only requires 75 or 85 watts for peak operation and there there is 7 amps still available after everything else that uses +12 volts, and if the 7 amps is available on the correct "+12volt" rail then the Earthwatts 500 watt supply will work. But it would be nice still to see an extra unused 5 amps or so as a safety margin.

[pingratt]

Hello zburns, you are really going the extra distance on this, voltage current power calculations, I thank you.
I looked at the HIS Radeon HD 5750 specs, and I agree, it is a nice card. But, I will not be gaming, and I want as little noise as possible from the computer, so maybe I need to look at something a bit smaller. My main use for this system will be sound, and then maybe to let the family get some joy out of the new computer by letting them watch some DVD movies when I'm not on it, so maybe a lower price decent HD card. The HIS Radeon HD 5750 might be too much. This should save on watts as well, so the 500 W psu should be good.
And this brings me around to your question about cooling. I want to reduce fan noise where possible, and if I go with a lesser video card than the HIS Radeon HD 5750, should also save some money that I cna use to add a cpu cooler. The How To Build A Computer tutorial suggests the ZALMAN CNPS9500 AT 2 Ball CPU Cooling Fan/Heatsink, would that work for my cpu choice (i5-750 Lynnfield 2.66GHz)? It claims to be quiet, I will also look at replacing case fans with quieter ones (onece I can actually hear it). I don't plan on doing things like over-clocking (I think thats what you call it, newbee to all this), so will I really need additional cpu cooling? Once I hear it running, I might want to quiet it down. I have some ideas like bigger slower fans, or stick on sound proofing, or maybe liquid cooling?

[zburns]

The Zalman fan should be fine as long as it is clear (spelled out clearly) it fits the i5-750, has all the mounting brackets, etc.. I have the AMD version of it and it is probably the quietest of my fans.

Next, I would not give up on the Radeon HD 5750 yet; its "high stress" rating is 75 or 85 watts, needs 7 amps, for one card. The Guru 3D comments may be somewhat in conflict with the Tom's Hdware Guide I used for my analysis so I would like to revisit all that with a fresh attitude. The HD 5750 use the 45 nm mfg technology with is much more power efficient allowing more components, better bang for the buck, compared to older designs.

[pingratt]

You're right about seller's sites specs not always matching supplier site info.
I'm looking at a couple simpler video cards. . .
HIS HD 4650 iSilence4 (http://www.hisdigital.com/us/product2-470.shtml)
uses VFP (Variable Fin Profile) Fin Design for cooling, no fan. The silence part I like, but wonder if these have proven to last without a fan.

The fan version would be, , ,
HIS HD 4650 Fan Turbo (http://www.hisdigital.com/us/product2-494.shtml)
But not seeing specs that tell what noise level the fan would be.

[pingratt]

zburns, I must have been writing my last reply same time you posted yours.

OK, not giving up on the Radeon HD 5750 yet. Looks like a nice one, just don't want a lot of additional fan noise.

I will do more research on the ZALMAN CNPS9500 AT 2 Ball CPU Cooling Fan/Heatsink to see if it will fit the 5-750.

[RickyTick]

Here's a very nice video review of a 5750 card. You get to hear the fan noise at about 4 minutes into the video. Well worth watching. Special thanks to Rodney Reynolds for another great review.
http://www.3dgameman.com/reviews/1120/his-hd-5750-iceq-1gb-gddr5-video-card

[pingratt]

Thanks for the video review for the 5750 RickyTick.
Like he said, good bang for the buck. But as soon as I heard
the fan, I knew I had to rethink some of this. I will sometimes
record with live mics in the room with the computer (small home studio).

I need to min the fan noise. So here is my current list of parts:

Case
Either the
Antec P183 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129061&Tpk=p183) that has sound proofing and more heat control
or the
NZXT WHISPER (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146051&Tpk=nzxt%20whisper%20atx) with similar sound proofing and cooling
Need PSU for either, so maybe the Antec EarthWatts 650
Cost a bit more but I won't need to buy a stepped up cpu cooler, will use the
one that comes with it, and should have enough power for now and future.

CPU Intel Core i5-750 Lynnfield 2.66GHz

Motherboard GIGABYTE GA-P55A-UD6

RAM G.SKILL 8GB (4 x 2GB) DDR3 1333

Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar Black WD7501AALS 750GB

Optical Drive LITE-ON Black 24X DVD+R 24X DVD-R SATA Black 24X DVD Writer LightScribe Support

Operating System Windows 7 Home Premium

So now I am a bit over budget, so for video card I may need to go with some basic
card for now, still looking into that.

[zburns]

Couple of comments. Old stuff. The Antec 500 watt supply is a newer one than many of us have. The new one is the Green 500D; it has two +12v rails with 22 amps each rail. The HD 5750 card has a max of 86 watts; your cpu i5-750 has a idle of 84 watts, a max usage of 184 watts. With some information from Gigabyte and/or Antec, we might find that that card will run fine on the 500 watt supply. The card mfg says 450 watts.

Regarding your newer choices for cases. The Antec P183 has four fans. I read two reviews; neither was complimentary when running all the fans at high speed because of noise. One or both were complimentary when running the fans at the medium speeds but warned that cpu and gpu temps would go up. Here are links to both of the reviews I looked at: http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/18650-antec-p183-mid-tower-case-review.html
and http://www.silentpcreview.com/article945-page5.html

Here is a one page review, test or report on cpu power usage by Amand Tech: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2832/17

Let me play Devils advocate: I do not know how you figure out in advance which case is going to be best and quietest. The insulated P183 case sounds like a good idea but with your feeling on fan noise, how will you deal with 4 fans running at high speed when the review says they are too loud. That seems to me to be the "goal of the P183 design" , that is a really powerful "air mover" for a lot of "computer hot gaming power".

Also, running all those fans is going to move a lot of air, and, in doing so will bring more dust thru.

Do you have any recommendations on either of these cases by similiar users as yourself for "audio" mixing and recording? I could not find any professional reviews on the second case.

[zburns]

Well, my face is red; it suddenly hit me that I am just plain goofy! I am mixing your audio card with your video card. There is no problem. Your audio card should work fine in a PCI slot and whatever video card you choose will be fine in the PCIex16 slot.

[pingratt]

No problem, sorry if I wasn't clear.

All is looking well. I think I am close.
With the sites you referenced for reviews of the p183, and some I found dedicated to home recording, I think I will be able to pick a case and psu that will be quiet enough. And then I just need to pick my final video card, and I will be off shopping for the best deal.

[RickyTick]

You could go with a passively cooled video card like this. It's silent.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131300

[zburns]

I talked to both Gigabyte and Antec tech support for the US about the topics in this post. The Earthwatts 500 watt PSU is now called the EA 500D Green and is the supplied psu with the Sonata III. It has two +12 volt rails or outputs, each will supply 22 amps. (It has the other smaller voltages; this post only about the 12 volt outputs.) The 12V1 rail supplies the CPU and the 12V2 rail supplies everything else, as explained below. In the case of 12V2 needing more amps (current), it will take it from the 12V1 rail; this feature makes the two rails "additive".

The Gigabyte motherboards being recommended in this forum seem to all have a separate 8 pin +12 volt mobo board connector for the CPU (if the PSU cable is not plugged into the mobo 8 pin board connector, the cpu will not run), and a 24 pin connector, four pins of the 24 pins are also +12 volts coming into the mobo from the PSU.

The 8 pin (could be 4 pin) +12 volt plug from the PSU is from what Antec calls the 12V1 rail or output or supply (any of the words work). It is dedicated solely to supplying +12 volts (max 22 amps) to the CPU (with one exception which I will get into later).

The other +12 volt rail (also 22 amps max) is called 12V2 and is somewhat independant of 12V1. This second +12 volts supplies the motherboard, thru the 24 pin plug, with the +12 volts required for all the other +12volt component functions on the motherboard plus voltages from the motherboard to other cards plugged into the mobo, such as PCI cards, incl the video card. (The 24 pin plug has a large 24 wire cable from the psu. +12 volts from 12V2 is included along with the other different voltages required by the mobo.)

However, the video card also has a separate power cable coming from +12V2 because the video card typically needs more power than the PCI plugs and board traces can supply.

+12 volts from the 12V2 rail or output also supplies the hard drive(s), DVD drive(s), floppy drive, SSD, fans (if they are +12volt), etc.. This voltage to peripherals is mainly thru the many 4 wire, 4 pin molex connectors coming thru the psu.

The 12V1 rail (22amps max) is essentially reserved for the CPU. For example the i5-750 under full stress can pull 184 watts (http://www.anandtech.com/show/2832/17 ) which is 15.33 amps, leaving about 6 amps as "headroom".

As previously said, the 12V2 rail (+12v, 22 amps total) supplies everything else in the "rig" that needs +12 volts. IMPORTANT COMMENT HERE: According to the Antec technician, if the 12V2 rail is called upon for more than its 22 amps max supply, the E500D circuitry "can get the extra needed amps" from the 12V1 supply; this makes the two +12 volt outputs of the E500D additive for a theroretical amp output at +12 volts of 44 amps. This applies only to the 12V2 getting "extra amps". The 12V1 for the CPU is limited to 22 amps; it cannot get extra amps from 12V2. (you know going in the max wattage draw of the cpu, or at least you should)

(We did not get into a "what if" discussion that the 12V2 rail may need more than the 12VI can supply (in additon to its cpu max load) -- that is another entirely separate discussion but should not happen if appropriate "headroom" is left for the PSU to operate within. You do not ever want your PSU to run at "max output" in the first place so assuming no component failure, overload should never happen.)

Earthwatts has a PSU calculator on their website. I used it and came up with less than 300 watts required for Pingratt's current build list. Then I went to Toms Hardware Guide (1 1/2 years old) and used some of their wattage values for peripherals, but I also used current values for the i5-750 and for the HIS HD 5750 video card.

I managed to get up to 367 watts (apx 26% headroom), while the calculator was a little less than 300 watts (40% headroom). Presumably, my total watts for the peripherals is way too high (meaning even more headroom).

[zburns]

Pingratt, my long post above should not be taken right now as an endorsement of the Antec 500D watt Green PSU for your new rig. I just confirmed a lot of this data today and I want it to sink in; think about it a day or two.

For example, on the motherboard wattage and the wattage for the peripherals such as hard drive, Optical drive, RAM, USB device, I had to guess; could not find specifics.

In addition, we do not know what your Delta 1010LT card draws in power thru the PCI slot. Also, I never asked you if the Delta card "only connected" to the Dell thru a PCI slot or is there another internal cable with plug on it that goes to the Delta card (such a extra plug in cable inside the Dell would indicate power usage).

On the one hand, it looks like the 500 watts works and has headroom; but to be certain, I would like to know the actual power consumption of the peripherals plus the Delta Card.

This comment about 30 min later: I looked at some websites once more on the Delta 1010LT card. Saw one with a specification list which said "No power required" or something like that. Saw another where they listed a small power supply as an accessory. When your card plugs into a PCI slot, it is going to get power from your computer thru the PCI slot or it has a cable leaving the card going to an "outside" power supply (that does not intefere with your computer). Has to be one or the other. The card has to have power.

[pingratt]

zburns, the delta card is powered from the pci slot, no added plug on power. I have gone over a bunch of sites including m-audio, and I have original packaging, but can't determine power draw of the delta. Probably not much, have not seen any power complaints.

I used the Antec power calc site, and plugged values for what I know, and added a few extra cards for future expansion, basically over estimated, and it recomended a 350 Watt or greater psu. So a 400w to 500w or there abouts should do it. Nice detail about the EA 500D Green from you.
But now that I saw the silentpcreview site I want a quiet psu and case. One of their recomended quiet psus is the Nexus Value 430. Not as much of a buffer, but for what I am doing, could be ok. I will track down their or whoevers review of how quiet the EA 500D Green is, it might still be the one.

I am also looking over the silentpcreview case recomendations now.

[zburns]

Couple comments about your last post, Nexus Value 430 and the Delta card.

First, silentpcreview comments on the nex val 430 were very good. It wins the "quiet award", no argument. And, I have not read the article fully, which I will. However, one thing stands out. Your i5-750 with full stress on it, will draw 184 watts which if that is an accurate wattage means 15.33 amps. The Nexus Value 430 will give you 20 amps max for the cpu. This leaves you headroom of apx 4.6 amps. (Antec 500D Green gives you 2 amps more).

Again I am not recommending the Antec 500D right now until I spend some more time reviewing what I just posted. 4.6 amps in not much room for error with the Nexus. One of the reasons I am holding back on the Antec is I want to be very sure that I know the "ampere loading" on the +12 supply that supplies the CPU on the Gigabyte mobo. The Antec has 2 more amps headroom than the Nexus 430; but Nexus has a 530 watt model, so I will give that a quick look.

In my last post I said I am not at the moment recommending the Earthwatts 500, now I add the Nexus 430 to that list. You have to be sure that with the quad cpu that your psu can handle all eventuallities. The manufacturers do NOT provide enough detail, specs or circuit diagrams to do an adequate job of "looking hard" at their product. The end result, because the info is not there, is a tendancy to buy a larger PSU than you really need. That is not a bad thing to do, but you still have to be careful.

The Guru 3D review on the HD 5750 card has some good actual operating power data on the one of Intel quads which I want to look at again and factor in their "power ratings". Using a quality 430 watt or 500 watt psu may be fine, but it is a tight call.

So I hope to comment back on this tomorrow sometime.

Your Delta card, and its power requirement. Best to ask the manufacturer using the model and serial number; at least you would feel you had something definite. But look at your card front and back. If all the components are IC chips with 6,12 or 14 pins, a few really small transistors, such an array would indicate very low power consumption.

If you have some individual components like a power transistor or SCR that is mounted on a heat sink, or the "single" component is the size of the end of your little finger or larger, then that would indicate power consumption.
So it the audio board is very low power, it will have "ALL" very small chips on the board and no heavy power components or heat sinks.

[zburns]

Pingratt, another item or point that needs to be checked. Your old Delta card PCI slot "pinout" and the dimensions from it to the back of the case, also the dimensions that the bracket and components in the bracket that go thru the back of the case need to be looked at.

Said differently, will your version of the card, not todays version, fit into an ATX case and plug into the PCI slot on an ATX mobo.

You may have already covered this!

[zburns]

This post has two topics: First, the Nexus 530 PSU. I quickly read the conclusions on "quietness" in the silentreview "review" of it. Here is the link to the review: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1012-page1.html
Here is the important exerpt from the conclusion on page 6: Quote: "The Nexus NX-5000 is one of the quietest power supplies reviewed in the anechoic chamber, and though it is louder than the Nexus Value 430 at 300~400W, it's practically inaudible below that power load, and still has reserve to spare for dual-GPU systems, 8 hard disks, or whatever other components you feel it must power." End of quote.

Second topic (unrelated to psu):
Pingratt, something else to think about. If in all this discussion, you decide to remove your audio card from the Dell, you then set up a situation where a "static elec discharge" can occur. Instant damage to the card and/or computer is possible.

If your "hands on research" puts you in a position of "doing this" , I strongly suggest you use a "static control" wrist strap when "you go into your computer case for any reason". They cost about $ 10.

When using it, first unplug your computer power cable. No power cable to the computer at all. A semi conductive strap straps around your wrist; long cord with alligator clip on end; attach alligator clip to any ground point on your computer case. Theoretically, this keeps you and the computer case, and the "insides" at the same voltage level (or voltage potential) and prevents a "transfer of a static charge" from you to the computer.

[pingratt]

Hello zburns,

The moderator for a forum for my delta card provided some good info.
Card does not draw much power, in fact he said that in a core i5 system,
a 400w psu should do the job. The Nexus NX-5000 should be quiet, but I
have seen a few reviews that say it is not modular. Since this is my first
home build, this could be a problem for me.

He did suggest a different mobo that has proven minor tweaks to stop latency
issues with the delta card. He suggests the Asrock P55M-PRO. I will compare
it with the gigabyte GA-P55A, and see if my memory and 15-750 still match up.

For the case I am looking at the Antec Solo. I saw a number of
good reviews for the solo and claims that it is indeed quiet. The delta
moderator confirmed that he had experience with the Antec solo and that
there would be no issues with the delta card.

For video card, instead of 5750, I might go with the lesser 5450 type.

Thanks for the static info. Actually I think I still have a strap around
somewhere from when I used to build my own music related circuit cards.

[zburns]

Everything you say sounds fine. One point tho to be certain about.

Just be absolutely certain you know that your Delta card is compatible with whatever PCI 1 slot you plug it into even tho it is a PCI slot card. It is your Delta card and your brand new motherboard you are marrying up and applying power too. If your Delta card with its age is not compatible with the new mobo PCI 1 slot, you are taking a risk of damage to the Delta card and the new mobo.

I assume ATX specs get altered, modified, changed, etc. over a period of time, years, etc..

1. The manufacturer of your card would know the answer.
2. Current users of a card identical to yours in recent (1-2years old) ATX computers know the answer.
3. Checking your "known" pinouts of your card to the pinouts of the new mobo PCI 1 slot socket also works but you must gather the data to do this.

[zburns]

Regards the Nexus NX-5000 PSU. Modular refers to the various cables that come from components to the PSU but "they plug into the PSU" instead of all the cable wiring entering the PSU housing and then each wire is hardwired to its particular connection (soldered). Hardwired cabling inside the PSU is far better than plugged in, particularly for the long term; it is not a debatable topic. Pluging the other end into each component is a matter of necessity from the component manufacturers viewpoint; you cannot warrant "components" and have various assemblers "solder" in cable connections to those components. Individual components have to be easily removable for service, troubleshooting, etc.. Plug in is best on the component end. Hardwired best on the PSU end.

The Nexus NX-5000 PSU has one +12 volt rail or output rated at 41 amps. The Antec 500D has two +12 volt rails (outputs), each rated at 22 amps. Whether one method is better than the other, I do not know. Because the psus are made both ways, the arguments for or against must not be overwhelming one way or another.

With a Antec Earthwatts 500D PSU powering a Gigabyte mobo, the cpu draws power from one of the two +12 volt rails; the rest of the mobo and other componets get their +12 volt power from the other 12 volt rail.

The cpu will not operate unless its 8 pin power plug(+12volt) is plugged into the mobo.

The cpu mobo wiring is deliberately this way for the PSUs built with multiple +12 volt rails. When a Nexus NX-5000 (one+12 volt rail) is used, the single rail 12volt output to the cpu connector and the +12 volt portion of the 24 pin mobo cable plug are "hooked together in parallel" by the internal wiring of the Nexus power supply.

In reviewing the Nexus PSU today, I ran across one PSU with three +12 volt rails (outputs), one for the cpu, one for the video card and one for all other +12 volt requirements including the 12 volt portion of the 24 pin mobo plug.

The reason the motherboards have separate cpu power connectors, separate +12volts as part of the 24 pin mobo connector, and separate video power connector is to accommadate single rail +12volt, two rail +12volt or three rail (or more) +12 volt power supplies. There are other voltages 3.3, 5 and maybe -12 but they are all low amps and low wattage. The +12 volts output (rail) and its associated high amperes is the source of most of the "wattage" of the psu.

[zburns]

Pingratt, my earlier statement "Everything sounds fine" is not so:

"He did suggest a different mobo that has proven minor tweaks to stop latency
issues with the delta card. He suggests the Asrock P55M-PRO."

This statement "sidetracked me". According to the AnandTech review, the board only started to ship in early 2010; where does above conclusion on latency "come from"?

Also, did not realize this was a MicroATX board. While it will go in your case, it is a good deal smaller and lacks some features the regular ATX mobos will have.

On the Asrock P55M-PRO company site, under "About Us", I could find no reference to "telephone tech support", only "email tech support". Also, under "About Us", the company started up in 2002.

For reviews: Google "Asrock P55M-PRO reviews" for the following reviews: (read the conclusions, always) iXBT Labs, AnandTech, Tom's Hardware (forget the name, Tom's is a very credible reviewer).

[pingratt]

Yes, I saw the same things about the Asrock P55M-PRO. I need to do more research and thinking about this. I'm not in a big hurry yet.

[zburns]

You might find it helpful if you take a look at the BIOS features on the Gigabyte board. The manual is available online; click on this link to get the manual, then go to page 72. Here is the link: http://download.gigabyte.asia/FileList/Manual/mb_manual_ga-p55a-ud6_e.pdf

The BIOS has a backup memory; they call it Dual BIOS. If something goes wrong (corrupted) with your main BIOS, you have an identical copy on a second BIOS chip. Q-Flash is another feature to update the BIOS with a later version of the BIOS. Their version is supposed to be "less risky" than traditional motherboard BIOS update procedures. Updating the BIOS is "feared" by many (including myself) so theoretically Gbyte has a solution.

I point the above out to you because these are features Gbyte claims to have that others do not. Everything starts with your BIOS; you have to be very careful when you enter BIOS or mess with it. Gbyte seems to have made it easier and safer for the user.

I have an Asus mobo myself, 2 years old, that Rob recommended; he now recommends Gbyte, as do other forum members. If I were changing boards today I would use Gbyte. They do have tech support in CA by phone. I have talked to them twice regarding your project and have been impressed by the knowledge of the personnel. I am not pushing Gbyte, just saying that I trust the manufacturer and their technology.

LATE EDIT!! I left out an important comment on my Gbyte "feelings". So far on any forum discussion on Gigabyte I am involved in, I have been able to look at the particular "mobo instruction manual" on line. It is very quick to access any of the Gbyte manuals, pdf. I have been quite impressed with the thoroughness (topic wise and explanations) of the manuals, the drawings, etc.; I say this in comparison to the manual for my mobo in which I was not so impressed. But the quality of their manuals is a big part of my positive thoughts on the company.

[pingratt]

I am still going with the GIGABYTE GA-P55A-UD6 at the moment. Thanks for the links and info about the bios. The delta moderator took a look at the mobo also and thinks it should be fine with the delta, but would need to be tried out to be sure.
Doing a bit more research, will post back later with list of where I am with system choices.

[pingratt]

zburns, Thanks for all the help so far, here is what I am planning for my new system. . .

case Antec Solo case
With Seasonic X-650 psu. Yes the psu is expenssive but gurantees quiet
power needs for now and future expansion.
CPU Intel Core i5-750 Lynnfield 2.66GHz
Motherboard GIGABYTE GA-P55A-UD6
RAM G.SKILL 8GB (4 x 2GB) DDR3 1333
Hard Drive Western Digital VelociRaptor WD3000HLFS 300GB 1000RPM 16MB Cache SATA
Optical Drive LITE-ON Black 24X DVD+R 24X DVD-R SATA Black 24X DVD Writer LightScribe Support
Operating System Windows 7 Home Premium (the 64 bit version)
Video Card POWERCOLOR Go! Green AX5450 1GBK3-SH Radeon (Cedar)

[zburns]

Just saw your post. Looks good at first glance. Glad you have upped the PSU size. Just curious but that 8 gig of ram seems like a lot. Did you have a particular recommendation that this amount would be a speed benefit for the music regards mixing? I am not suggesting you reduce it; right now I am just curious.

I will go thru your list tomorrow and post any additional comments I might have.

[pingratt]

Yes, I will probably go with 4GB ram.
I need to save a few bucks because I still will need to get a decent HD monitor as well.

[zburns]

If you did not look at this page, you should do so. http://www.silentpcreview.com/article986-page5.html

It is the rationale for your choice of PSUs. The chart at the bottom shows the SPL (Sound Pressure Level) for different PSUs at "increasing SPL levels vs. wattage".

In effect, with the Seasonic 650, you are "buying silence" by operating a computer at about 300 to 400 watts with a PSU that runs very silent at low wattages but does increase in noise level at higher wattages. In fact at 400 watts and above it jumps probably out of your desired range.

The idea that you can expand the wattage use and keep it quiet is not true; but as long as your recording activities stay below 400 watts, you will have a quiet system; but if you expand video cards to a "high end" which means more watts, psu noise level goes up but it is a non-recording activity so it would be a non issue, presumably.

I am not saying do not use it, but I would like to look at this review more throughly. I posted this because I did not want to lose these initial thoughts on the review.

[pingratt]

Yes, I did look at that page about how that psu runs quiet at lower power. That is what attracted me to it. But again, I have budget concerns, so maybe the Nexus NX-5000 PSU will be ok. I re-read your comments about it, and I am sure I can figure out how to hook everything up to it. I did computer hardware repair in the 80's, even did high voltahe power supply repairs and lived to tell about it, so probably can deal with it.

[zburns]

The Seasonic at 300 watts has a SPL rating of 16, while the Nexus 5000 at 300 watts has a SPL of 22. At 400 and 500 watts, Nexus beats Seasonic by about 6 db. For your audio mixing and recording, your wattage will be 300 and under probably. So Seasonic does do better (quieter) through 300 watts. Whether this is worth the extra money is your call.

Seasonic is also modular on this model and they talk about it as an advantage; so I am still reading their stuff on that subject.

In my earlier post I was just pointing out that you were going with a higher wattage psu in order to get lower sound levels at 300 watts and lower. The fact that the Seasonic has higher wattage output may be the reason it is quieter at the lower wattages. May have to do with the wire size having to be larger; more than likely better ventilation and less fan speed at lower watts. But the reviewer really thinks highly of this Seasonic model.

[zburns]

Here are final comments on the Seasonic 650 psu. There is another excellent review by "johnny guru" (psu reviews only); here is the link: http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=169

He gives the Seasonic rave reviews and a 9.5 out of 10 rating. Silentpcreviews says something to the effect that this psu is the "best tested" by them, very high opinion.

Because Seasonic went for a 80 plus gold rating, they had to achieve very high efficiency in the 90 percent range. This means "relatively" cooler operation at all wattage levels compared to a 80 % efficiency product (psu). Ninety percent efficient operation means cooler operation at 250 to 300 watts and this means less fan noise (or none if the fan is not running) (a more silent operating condition).

The higher 90 percent efficiency probably means larger wire in the step down transformer and filter coils so there is less "heat loss" in the transformer and psu in general. Because this is intended to be a "deluxe design", it would be a reasonable to assume that the "performance" (silent operation) would last longer (ie psu would be less subject to deterioration over time).

The higher initial cost of this psu should also mean more and better components and a more effective design (due to lack of cost restrictions). Long term this could be the "cheaper psu".

The modular cable feature is debatable; however, it is of lesser importance than any consideration above. The sensitive area for modular cables would be potentially (in the longer term) "poor connections at the plugs" that feed the mobo, cpu and the video card. If this was ever proven to be a problem, they could be "hardwired out" at the plugs themselves (no big deal to do this). Another new psu by XFX XPS Black Edition 750W Power Supply does exactly this. Mobo, cpu, video power cables are hardwired and peripherals are "plug in", at the psu itself.

Summary: The Seasonic X-650 is evidently a suberb PSU with silent performance in the 250 to 300 watt range and should perform "silently" a long time; the higher cost of the product means better components and design and, therefore, is the primary reason for the great performance.