First Build Questions -- High-End Core i7 Multimedia [Archive] - My Super PC Forums - Build Your Own Computer - Message Board

JeffAHayes19

05-30-2009, 10:44 PM

Hi folks,

I've been "haunting" this forum for quite some time because my initial registration email got misrouted, so I wasn't able to complete my registration... Gave me a chance to read enough threads to have a good idea what most folks are doing here, and it's not exactly what I'm thinking of doing, but I think some of you have the expertise to help me.

I've never built a PC before, but I've replaced enough parts (power supply, RAM, video cards), and watched some of the online videos, and I think I could do it. It's not as much about cost, for me, as I've been saving up -- it's about getting exactly what I want.

For the first time in 20 years or so I want to go really high-end (which is a much better deal now than it used to be). I'm planning to wait until Windows 7 is out, so I'm not in a hurry, and I want to do things right. My biggest questions deal with processor and video card... Motherboard, case and power supply are also issues, but can be dealt with more when I get ready to build.

First, on the forum's high-end "sticky," the recommended chip is the Core i7 920, which is obviously the best buy of the Core i7 bunch. I'm wondering what thoughts are on the other two, prices aside (prices might drop). When I look at Intel's ratings on these chips they rate the 920 and 940 at 4.8 GT and the 965 at 6.4 GT, but I've not been able to discern what a "GT" is ANYWHERE. Does anyone know? I've also read many reports where the 920 can easily be overclocked to anywhere from the 965's stock 3.2 Ghz up to 4 Ghz or more, but nothing about doing similar with the others, or if it's worth it, and if one were to install the 920, how would you go about that? Is it really "dollar-foolish" to install anything other than the 920 at this point? (I'm looking at a system that will satisfy my needs for 3 years or so, for multimedia, hi-def TV, no gaming, but possibly some hi-def editing and photo editing).

As to that, my understanding is that the higher the GDDR number is on memory, the faster it is, which leads me to favor the 4870 cards for video, as I'm more interested in raw video speed for things like Blu-Ray and video editing. I'm leaning towards the 4870 2GB GDDR5 card, even though that's a $470 card because, again, I want a video card I'll be happy with for the life of the computer (I'm on my third card {if you count the cheap one that came with it} on this Core 2 duo 6400 XPS 410 I got from Dell in Nov. 2006 -- 9800 GT DDR3 512 MB).

Third, and this is my biggest problem with customizing with someone like CyberPowerPC (aside from the fact that some customers report bad experiences), I want an SSD for my boot drive, and I want a specific SSD that nobody seems to be offering with their computers -- the one Anandtech has rated as the best (other than the Intel X-25s), the OCZ Vertex. You can get the 120 GB Vertex at Newegg for about $329, I think (don't quote me exactly on that price). For a second drive, I'd likely get a 300 GB Velociraptor. One of my BIGGEST issues with my current (and all previous) computers is the long boot time and all the time the hard drive seems to take "just spinning." I want to ELIMINATE that. I already use my "C" drive as only a boot and program drive, and that's still how I'd use it, with 120 GB being deliberate overkill just to allow "head room" on the drive. I have about 3.5 TB of external drives already, so extra storage space isn't an issue (I have a lot of old stored TV programs -- many of which I need to watch and clean out, and then I'll have all that storage for "whatever.")

I'm also a bit curious about power supplies. It seems I read somewhere about "green" power supplies that deliver only as much power as is needed at the time, or something, and then have "resting states" where they use less power. With a system such as what I'm looking at probably needing something along the lines of a 700 or 800 watt power supply, to be on the safe side -- especially if I decide to "get really crazy later" and go crossfire -- it would be nice to have a power supply that delivers only as much power as is needed and doesn't constantly put out a certain amount (maybe none of them do... I don't know).

As I said, cases and motherboards we can talk about later... I'd want USB, Firewire and eSata on my Motherboard, and as many regular PCI slots in addition to the PCIe slots as I could have, within reason, but I won't go crazy with price for either, since I'm spending so much in other areas, already.

Sorry my first post here is such a long one. Hope you folks don't think I'm crazy. I just want a really NICE computer. I'm not even gonna get a new monitor... I'm perfectly happy with my HP 24" HD 1920X1200 monitor I'm using now, and I replaced a 21" Gateway monitor to install this one, so I'll be able to hook that one back up to this Dell.

I just know that even though I upgraded the PS in this Dell to a 500-watt Antec, replaced all the PC5300 RAM with Corsair Dominator PC 6400 and put in that NVidia 9800 GT 512 MB card when I added my LG Blu-Ray Reader/writer around Christmas-time, it still seems like it wants to lock up on me sometimes... hangs on me for seconds at a time on certain commands, etc... I keep my "C" drive defragged (something I know I won't WANT to do with the SSD, but it has special controller circutry on it), keep everything up to date with Microsoft Update, etc... When I update this time, I want it to be a "significant" update.
Jeff

RickyTick

05-31-2009, 12:14 AM

First, on the forum's high-end "sticky," the recommended chip is the Core i7 920, which is obviously the best buy of the Core i7 bunch. I'm wondering what thoughts are on the other two, prices aside (prices might drop). When I look at Intel's ratings on these chips they rate the 920 and 940 at 4.8 GT and the 965 at 6.4 GT, but I've not been able to discern what a "GT" is ANYWHERE. Does anyone know? I've also read many reports where the 920 can easily be overclocked to anywhere from the 965's stock 3.2 Ghz up to 4 Ghz or more, but nothing about doing similar with the others, or if it's worth it, and if one were to install the 920, how would you go about that? Is it really "dollar-foolish" to install anything other than the 920 at this point? (I'm looking at a system that will satisfy my needs for 3 years or so, for multimedia, hi-def TV, no gaming, but possibly some hi-def editing and photo editing).

It works out well that you're not in a big hurry to build. The i7 920 and 940 have already been marked for EOL (end of life). Most tech news sites are reporting that a the i7 might be used primarily for extremely high end, and they will introduce an i7 950 and 975 to fit that market. http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2009/05/28/intel-to-discontinue-core-i7-920-940-cpus/ This kind of puts everything in the air for now. I would certainly wait to find out the hard truth on the direction of Intel. The i5 might end up being a much better option.

fwiw, GT is gigatransfers or transfers per second. That's all I could find of any importance. :)

As to that, my understanding is that the higher the GDDR number is on memory, the faster it is, which leads me to favor the 4870 cards for video, as I'm more interested in raw video speed for things like Blu-Ray and video editing. I'm leaning towards the 4870 2GB GDDR5 card, even though that's a $470 card because, again, I want a video card I'll be happy with for the life of the computer (I'm on my third card {if you count the cheap one that came with it} on this Core 2 duo 6400 XPS 410 I got from Dell in Nov. 2006 -- 9800 GT DDR3 512 MB).

The 4870 is an outstanding video card and will be more than adequate for your needs. However, I'm not sure you'll need the 2gb version. The 1gb is a great performer, and would actually be a little overkill for you since you're not a gamer.

Third, and this is my biggest problem with customizing with someone like CyberPowerPC (aside from the fact that some customers report bad experiences), I want an SSD for my boot drive, and I want a specific SSD that nobody seems to be offering with their computers -- the one Anandtech has rated as the best (other than the Intel X-25s), the OCZ Vertex. You can get the 120 GB Vertex at Newegg for about $329, I think (don't quote me exactly on that price). For a second drive, I'd likely get a 300 GB Velociraptor. One of my BIGGEST issues with my current (and all previous) computers is the long boot time and all the time the hard drive seems to take "just spinning." I want to ELIMINATE that. I already use my "C" drive as only a boot and program drive, and that's still how I'd use it, with 120 GB being deliberate overkill just to allow "head room" on the drive. I have about 3.5 TB of external drives already, so extra storage space isn't an issue (I have a lot of old stored TV programs -- many of which I need to watch and clean out, and then I'll have all that storage for "whatever.")

Don't know much about SSD's, but the X25-M seems to be the best performer.

I'm also a bit curious about power supplies. It seems I read somewhere about "green" power supplies that deliver only as much power as is needed at the time, or something, and then have "resting states" where they use less power. With a system such as what I'm looking at probably needing something along the lines of a 700 or 800 watt power supply, to be on the safe side -- especially if I decide to "get really crazy later" and go crossfire -- it would be nice to have a power supply that delivers only as much power as is needed and doesn't constantly put out a certain amount (maybe none of them do... I don't know).

Definately stay with the top name brands. Corsair and PC Power&Cooling are making great psu's. Corsair TX models come in 650, 750, and 850 watt iirc.

As I said, cases and motherboards we can talk about later... I'd want USB, Firewire and eSata on my Motherboard, and as many regular PCI slots in addition to the PCIe slots as I could have, within reason, but I won't go crazy with price for either, since I'm spending so much in other areas, already.

Sorry my first post here is such a long one. Hope you folks don't think I'm crazy. I just want a really NICE computer. I'm not even gonna get a new monitor... I'm perfectly happy with my HP 24" HD 1920X1200 monitor I'm using now, and I replaced a 21" Gateway monitor to install this one, so I'll be able to hook that one back up to this Dell.

I just know that even though I upgraded the PS in this Dell to a 500-watt Antec, replaced all the PC5300 RAM with Corsair Dominator PC 6400 and put in that NVidia 9800 GT 512 MB card when I added my LG Blu-Ray Reader/writer around Christmas-time, it still seems like it wants to lock up on me sometimes... hangs on me for seconds at a time on certain commands, etc... I keep my "C" drive defragged (something I know I won't WANT to do with the SSD, but it has special controller circutry on it), keep everything up to date with Microsoft Update, etc... When I update this time, I want it to be a "significant" update.
Jeff

I think you have a lot more research work to do. It's good that you have the time to do this right. I hope we can help you along the way.

JeffAHayes19

05-31-2009, 02:13 AM

Don't know much about SSD's, but the X25-M seems to be the best performer.

Thanks, much, for your prompt reply, RickyTick.

As a moderator and also the one who posted the suggested build for high-end machines, you're exactly the sort of person I was addressing with this post.

SSDs happen to be one area in which I'm becoming a bit versed, as I've been doing a bit of research on them, since there's virtually nothing about them in stores or "mainstream." Actually, Intel has just recently upped the ante a bit with the Intel X25-E (E for enhanced), which is like TWICE the price of the now much less expensive X25-M. That said, that article to which I referred at Anandtech.com (actually one of several, but the particular review is something like 60 webpages long... a sort of brief history of SSDs, explanation of how they work, issues with them and how manufacturers and chip controller makers are addressing them -- OR NOT -- etc., followed by benchmarks of the two Intel drives, plus two by OCZ, several by JMicron, and one by Samsung, compared against the WD Velociraptor -- which the author calls "the fastest consumer hard drive on the market," and a standard 5400.6 WD hard drive), then some additional analysis and final comments. What struck me as most telling was that the author of this review, who said he REALLY BURNED OCZ in his prior review about 6 months previous, gave them a shot at redemption this time, and they listened to his suggestions, and when the drives they sent him still had latency issues (which cause the stuttering that causes many SSDs to perform no better or even worse than standard hard drives in the long run), they took his advice and changed the controller protocol to actually SLOW DOWN the standard read/write speeds -- what most people only look at -- in order to get a more stable drive. The end result was that particular OCZ drive -- NOT their top-of-the-line drive, actually BEAT the Intel drives in many tests and almost ALWAYS beat their "Summit" drive that was supposed to be more expensive! Newegg now has this drive rated as the Customers' Choice Top Drive.

I could chalk all that up to just a paid-off reviewer, except I've read a lot of customer comments at NewEgg and other places that seem to say similar things about OCZ actually LISTENING. That impresses me... Probably not enough to buy their RAM, as Corsair generally still gets better ratings, lol, but enough to buy their SSD, I think... Again, sorry that's so long, but that's REALLY SHORT compared to the 10,000 words, or so, in that review and analysis. I don't have a direct link or I'd insert it. If anyone wants one, I'll find it and insert later, or you can go to Anandtech and find it without too much trouble.

As for the i7 vs. i5 debate, I haven't clicked that link yet, but it DOES sound like I have a bit more debating to do. I really don't want to miss out on a chance at the new technology, though, meaning that if Intel is about ready to make it "for professionals only," that would sorta piss me off, although I used to publish a weekly newspaper, so I could likely "make a case." (Of course I was Mac only then, lol.)

I'll decide on how much RAM on that video card when time comes to spend the money. I agree with you, for the time being, but I'm always trying to imagine what will be "sufficient" in two or three years, knowing how Moore's Law works. I neglected to mention that I watch a fair share of video from sites like Hulu.com and the networks and may be doing a lot more of that in the future, if trends continue the way they are. Again, I'm sure you're right that the 1GB card is probably overkill at present, but what if they start streaming something like 1080P? Right now, my cable modem is only 10 Mbps, but I have access to twice that if I'm willing to pay more, and faster is surely on the way (faster would surely be needed for something like streaming 1080P). I may also be off-loading video to an HDTV under these circumstances, although I don't currently do that (although I can, I just don't -- my HDTV by my computer is only 720P and 27" and my monitor is 24" and 1920x1200, so I don't see the point, lol).

Speaking of RAM, I've yet to see anyone here talk about putting in more than 6 GB of DDR3 RAM, even though Core i7 systems are capable of addressing up to 24 GB and it's currently fairly easy to stock them up with up to 12 GB. I'm looking at defiintely going with 12 GB -- particularly at current RAM prices (best I've EVER seen)... Probably 1600 Mhz Corsair Dominator, but I'm not sure what timing to buy (not even sure what those timings mean... 7-7-7-9, etc.) On the CyberPowerPC site, they charge something like a $569 UPCHARGE for Kingston Hyperex RAM. Does anyone know WHY it's worth that much extra?

I'll actually probably use some of the "sample builds" at CyberPowerPC, along with the Recommended Build page here, to help me decide what to build... There's a local computer shop that builds computers, too, and if I get a little chicken, I might just buy all the parts and see how much they'll charge to put them together, lol. I've SWEATED BULLETS just getting RAM into a socket before, the fit is so freakin' tight, sometimes... Always figure I'm gonna push too hard the wrong way and break a DIMM or it will all slide in just ONE pin off and ruin both the DIMM and the slot... Hasn't happened yet, but GEESH it's hard sometimes.

Anyway, just a bit more background on where my thinking is. I hope I can also be of some help to others here, to. Since I haven't actually built a system yet, I'm afraid to post anything, but I have replaced several cards, A LOT of RAM, a power supply, added a few internal hard drives, a SuperSCSI card on a PowerMac back in 2000, and most recently a Blu-Ray/DVD reader/writer... Pulling all those old cables out from the old power supply and then figuring where all the new ones needed to go -- especially wnen the new PS had twice as many cables -- was a bit daunting, but after a couple of restarts where not everything worked, I got it straight.

It's really NOT rocket science. Then again, 700 watts routed improperly could fry just about anything, huh?
Jeff

RickyTick

05-31-2009, 02:42 PM

Anandtech and The Tech Report are the only tech sites I read on a regular basis. You can get a tremendous amount of information there. I'd be curious to hear what Wise Monkey's opinions are. He's the techie guy around here. :)

Here's a really nice article on the Radeon HD4870 2gb. Nothing but praise.
http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=737&pageid=1

With the current prices of ram, I'm inclined to agree to put in more than 6gb of ram. On the other hand, excessive ram could stress the NB of the motherboard and may even require a slight voltage tweak to make it 100% stable. Also, 6gb of ram is a lot of ram. I only have 4gb, and never use more than 50% of it, afaik. I guess it depends on the software you'll be using, and how much multi-tasking you do. I can't imagine paying $569 for 6gb of ram. Using 6 or more gb of DDR3 ram is going to be fast no matter what latency it is. I'm partial to G.Skill, but that's just me.

Don't underestimate your ability to do this yourself. There's tons on help all over the internet to help you get this done all by yourself. :D Plus, the feeling of accomplishment is a great thing.

JeffAHayes19

05-31-2009, 10:28 PM

Oh, it won't be "all by myself." If I do it, it will be with the help of RickyTick and the WiseMonkey and Administrator Rob, and that $20 book that goes with this forum, and anyone and everyone else on this forum and anywhere else who speaks, writes and acts with wisdom and authority.

There's a local computer shop I think does custom builds. He's done some minor repair work for me in the past, and once when I was adding a hard drive and having problems with an installation on a previous computer, did some troubleshooting for me and helped finish the installation for low dollars. I figure if I get in over my head, I can always go see him. He also resuced data from one hard drive that stopped spinning and put it on another and confirmed another had completely locked up and I'd need the services of a $1,000 clean-room job to recover it -- this a 1-month-old Western Digital "bookshelf" drive, or whatever they called those. It was so new I'd not yet bothered to back anything up, and lost a bunch of irreplaceable photos. Learned my lesson there.

I'm swallowing hard on this because I'm looking at probably close to $3,000 with the video card and the two hard drives... and I HATE spending big dollars on components that are likely to drop quickly in price. I'll likely go with Core i-something, even if this means I buy a soon-to-be-discontinued i7 model, but now I'm not sure if this also means the prices for the 920 and 940 are likely to start rising or falling... I was planning on either the 920 or the 965, anyway, with likely no middle ground, but hoping the price on that 965 would find a reason to start coming down, lol (no luck, so far). Maybe it's foolish to buy anything but the 920. I'm definitely going to wait a bit and see what news there is about the i5s, but if things are looking hinky, I may go ahead and buy some core components, like the processor, early.

I look forward to WiseMonkey's input on all this. I know I can ramble, sorry.
Jeff

JeffAHayes19

05-31-2009, 11:55 PM

I just finished reading the link you posted above, Ricky, and I can see a lot of why you think the 2 GB card is likely a waste for me (or many folks), as that particular site tested the 2 GB card against the 1 GB "reference card" at the maximum 2560 x 1600 resolution and the difference in frame rates in the games they were testing was still very minor (I really wish someone would test cards on something besides GAMES once in a while, though -- on the flip side, I say I don't game, but I downloaded this silly little game about Zombies in your garden -- doesn't seem very "high-end" at all, and even THAT seemed to tax my 512 MB 9800 and/or my 2.4 Ghz core 2 duo a time or two -- and I was just playing the trial demo version -- addictive, though!

At any rate, it's things like THIS: http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=737&pageid=7 (scroll to the bottom of the page to read what's pertinent) from the next-to-last page of the review, that still make me feel the extra $$$ for the more expensive card are worth it (i.e., it runs a lot cooler). It's sort of like with a boot drive. You NEVER fill up a hard drive you want to run fast -- particularly a boot drive -- because the more full a drive gets the less desireable the sectors used and the slower it runs. I'm thinking the 2 GB card gives me plenty of "head room" for the future -- especially not knowing where online video is going.
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-01-2009, 04:03 AM

First of all, and most importantly, is the game Plants vs Zombies? Is it any good, because I have heard lots of good things about it. :D

Anyhoo... Components-wise, and I don't mean to cause any offence here, but it seems that you are seriously over-estimating how much performance you will really need. I would err on the side of allowing easy upgrading rather than spending a huge amount for something you won't actually be utilising to its full potential.

For example, I wouldn't recommend buying anything more expensive than an i7 920 for the simple reason that the price increase doesn't justify the performance increase. Pay twice as much for a 940 for a 5% increase, or 4 times as much for a 965 and get maybe a 15% increase.

Also, if you decide to upgrade it in a year or so, then the 920 will have a better chance of reselling on eBay. Buy it now for $280 and easily sell it for $140 a few years later, or buy the 965 for $1000 and have to sell it for $500. The people who need to buy the latest and greatest won't be getting it from eBay, they will be buying it new.

Overall I think that the link that Ricky posted changes the game a bit. Wait until September before deciding on a CPU as prices will change and a better CPU option might arise.

Right, onto the RAM. Buy 6GB for $80 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227365 - 87% 5* reviews can't be wrong. Same timings as the Corsair Dominator but a lot cheaper.
If you find it isn't enough, buy some more. RAM problem solved. :D

For timings info, read the last few posts in this thread - I hope they make sense:
http://forums.mysuperpc.com/showthread.php?t=2279

SSD wise, the X25-E is only really meant for high end servers and the X25-M is the desktop equivalent. This article from AnandTech offers a direct comparison between the X25-M and the Vertex: http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3535&p=1

The article you were referring to, which I assume is this one (sorry about linking to page 25, but it makes my point :D): http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3531&p=25

This page demonstrates the most commonly performed actions - random reads and writes, which the Intel absolutely dominates at. I mean, it just destroys the competition. Random writes include things like MSN/Firefox logs and things like that, which occur often and frequently.

There's no disputing that the OCZ drive is still a very good buy, and it is a lot cheaper than the Intel drives and does beat it in a few of the tests, and the reviewer does end with saying that if you want price/performance trade off then go for the OCZ drive. But since you are going for the best performance everywhere else in your system, why settle for second best in such a key component?

Finally, the graphics. For editing, the load is mainly on the CPU, so the graphics won't make a huge difference. For HD video, it doesn't take a huge amount of graphics power either. A good example of this is nVidia's new 790GX platform, which offers onboard graphics that have HDMI capability. As for streaming 1080p video, can you stream Youtube's HD video? That is 720p, and it isn't a big leap from there to 1080p.

I find it difficult to recommend anything more expensive than the ATI 4890 or the nVidia GTX275, as these offer the best price/performance ratio at the moment. Like the CPU, you will get better reselling options on these cards as well.

OK, that was perhaps my longest post here, but here is the TL: DR summary - wait a few months to see what happens. You are in a very good position at the moment with regards to technological developments. When Windows 7 is released by the end of this year, Intel should be releasing a new range of i7/i5 CPUs, AMD will respond, prices will be falling all over the place. In addition, new firmware developments for the Vertex SSD will increase its performance and possibly make it better than the Intel drive.

Hope this helps. :)

The Wise Monkey

06-01-2009, 05:27 AM

Update on i5s: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3570

Seems like the i7 920 will no longer be a good option come September, so just wait and see. :)

JeffAHayes19

06-01-2009, 02:54 PM

Thanks for the links, Wise Monkey -- especially the last one, as I didn't realize Anandtech had just done a Core i5 review/comparison (I spent an hour or two Googling the Core i7 EOL issue and Core i5 intro before coming to check this thread, but didn't catch that one).

YES, the Anandtech article on SSDs you linked to Page 25 IS the one I'm talking about. EXCEPT for that one Random Write benchmark, the OCZ Vertex came in a fairly close second (or beat) the Intel X-25M in just about every test, but I agree that in that ONE test it came in a DISTANT third (although it was still way ahead of fourth). It was like 23-2.4 behind the Intel drive in Random Writes, and that IS a huge difference, particularly in something quite common on the boot drive during web searches and so forth... When I get ready to buy, I'll definitely have to do a final assesment on price vs. performance... The biggest issue to me is that I want 120 GB boot drive for head room (although I just read that Vista SP2 is freeing up A LOT of drive space SP1 seems to dedicate for the mirror image for Restore Points -- my C: drive says it has twice as much space used when I check "properties" than I can count up when I add up all the folders, and I have all folders, including "hidden system folders" selected to be shown). Of course there's no way of knowing what System 7 will be like in such regards. OCZ has drives at 60 and 120 GB (they're actually 64 and 128, but again, OCZ -- unlike most drive makers, is being CONSERVATIVE and not claiming the extra GB that don't count). Intel is 80 or 160, and while the 80 is now priced about where OCZ's 120 is, the 160 is STEEP (and really more than I'm likely to ever need -- even for "head room")

I'm not quite finished reading that Anandtech article on the Core i5s, but from what I've read so far, both there and other places, I'm still sort of leaning towards staying with Core i7, although I have lots of time to debate it. I'm not sure I like the fact that they're doing away with the triple-channel memory access, even though the new chips will still be able to use DDR3 RAM... Some of this seems to be a backwards step, to me. Also, RickyTick, that article you linked to about the 920 and 940 going EOL, I can't find anything about the 920 going EOL ANYWHERE else -- everywhere else it says the 940 and 965. Not saying that article is wrong -- it's pretty new stuff... I just couldn't find anything on the 920 going EOL anywhere else and I'm wondering if maybe since the 920 is so popular in contrast Intel is going to keep it a bit longer and someone made a typo in that article.

As for the video card, that's certainly not "carved in stone" by any means. It just seemed nice to me, lol, but if it truly IS overkill I can scale down. I definitely agree with you about not getting the "latest, greatest," when it won't be worth nearly as much in a few months, Wise Monkey. That's part of where I'm trying to decide where to split hairs... I'm a bit concerned that if I do wait for the Core i5s, there will be so much to work out about new motherboards, chip coolers, etc., it'll be next year before I get it all done... But as more information emerges on the i5, if the new technology has any true benefits over the i7, I'll wait for it.
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-01-2009, 03:26 PM

Well, you are already doing most of the legwork way in advance, which will set you in good stead when you need to decide.

I can see why you want to go for the OCZ drive, and you do have a good point. Guess I'm just a bit of an Intel fan. :D Plus the Vertex hasn't really been market proven as of yet, so it will be interesting to see how the future versions of the firmware perform.

JeffAHayes19

06-03-2009, 01:34 AM

Well, WiseMonkey, I WAS thinking late summer, then this "up-in-the-air" business about the Core i7 had me possibly pushing my build date sooner (or at least my purchase date for my processor, depending), but now I'm swinging possibly more to YOUR thinking above -- especially after the latest news from ZDNet: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=1021&tag=nl.e589

Actually, while it's still probably pretty early to tell, and I'm sure there are still gadzillions of 920 processors "in the stream," even if it is getting phased out, I'm hoping more news and articles will be forthcoming on exactly what and where Intel is going with all this. You haven't responded to my comment about the switch from triple channel to dual channel memory controller in the Core i5 yet, so I don't know what you think about that. Heck, some articles I'm reading now are saying Core i5 isn't even something that's come from Intel, just a name reviewers have been using (PCWorld said that -- Note, however, that when I did a search for the End-of-Life information at PCWorld.com it returned ZERO results, and the two press releases on the 940 and 965 are almost a month old, so they're not necessarily THE BIBLE on anything, lol).

At any rate, Microsoft DOES have a definite RTM release date set for Windows 7, now, and with it being Oct. 22, perhaps I really SHOULD just cool my heels here, settle down and take my time. My current system turns 3 Nov. 19. There's no big hurry.
Jeff

Another thought I had about the i7 vs. the i5 processors (and I may REALLY be showing my ignorance here, but here I go)... the i7 chip has 1366 connections to the motherboard vs. 1156 on the i5. I guess there are two ways to look at that. The positive way for the i5 is that the processor is more efficient... For the i7 it's that it has an extra 210 connections to the motherboard with which it can communicate with the rest of the system, graphics cards, RAM, whatever. The lower number of connections on the i5 may be due to the dual-channel memory access, vs. the triple-channel on the i7, or any of a million different factors I know nothing about, but if the number of connections to the motherboard means anything, the i7 would seem to have a bit more "oomph." Or am I all wet?

And for another addition... Hot off the presses, so to speak -- only 2 hours old: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core-i7-975-950.html

I'm only on the second page, so far, but this is looking like an excellent article about the transition from 940-950 and 965-975. It also verifies the earlier article you quoted about 920s being phased out entirely, RickyTick, and even this early in the article the explanation is clear -- Intel is trying to make the Core i5 a sort of clear "niche" product between the Core 2duo/quad market and the Core i7 market, while still leaving Core i7 available for true enthusiasts and professionals...

-- 5:35 a.m.
A brief response to your comment, below, WiseMonkey, about the "actual" RTM release of Windows 7 of mid-July to manufacturers... The article I read actually said "July 1," but it said it would be released to "Microsoft's Partners," (whatever that means -- I assume it means computer builders and software developers -- and in the case of computer builders, that being so they could begin loading it on the hard drives of new systems, which may or may not begin shipping with Windows 7 prior to the GENERAL PUBLIC BOXED version availability date of Oct. 22). I just didn't bother to mention that fact, since I assume those of us building our own systems likely won't have the "partner" status that gives us this early access to Windows 7 -- at least not unless we can find hard drives that come pre-installed with Windows on them, which I consider unlikely -- especially in the case of specialty drives, such as SSDs. At any rate, I very much agree with you that with Intel apparently having NO PLANS to replace the 920 with a different processor when they phase it out sometime after they phase in the 950 and 975, with the definite "bang for the buck advantage" of the 920 -- including over the new Linnfield processors, from what I can tell -- that definitely WILL still be the way to go!

Just so ya know ya didn't "catch me sleeping" (although God knows I really SHOULD BE at this hour, and am just about to go make that a reality, lol).
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-03-2009, 02:58 AM

Actually, Windows 7 RTM is due in the second half of July according to their blog - it will be available to buy on the 22nd October. Just a minor clarification. :)

i5 is just a name which is in common usage amongst tech websites for lack of anything better to use. They could use Lynnfield each time, but i5 is quicker, and shows the comparison with i7 i.e. Nehalem cores.

Dual channel vs triple channel doesn't really affect performance that much, and RAM is so cheap now that you can get really decent stuff which would negate the performance advantage anyway.

Most articles I have read about the new i7 975 and 950 end up with the conclusion that these CPUs are good, but there is no point buying them because the 920 overclocks so well and is at least $250 cheaper. It seems that Intel want to get rid of the 920 because you can get the same performance as a 965 for $700 less, which isn't great news for them. As such, it might be a good move to buy one before it is discontinued, as it still offers the best price/performance ratio for the i7 range.

I think the fact that you are spending a lot of time on this indicates that performance is a high priority, and as such the i7 is the way to go. You could settle for an i5 (or whatever it is finally called) and the performance will probably be better than the i7 920. But the excellent overclocking on the 920, plus the fact that you then have the option to upgrade to the 6-core CPUs if you want which will only be available on the 1366 socket, forces me to recommend the 920.

Oatmealman15

06-03-2009, 12:04 PM

Just replying to Wise Monkeys question regarding plants vs zombies. I played the demo which gives you an hour of play time and I was addicted the whole hour, even if toward the end it starts to get a little monotonous I was laughing the whole time at the random zombies and costumes :)

JeffAHayes19

06-03-2009, 11:34 PM

Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to neglect responding to your question about Plants vs. Zombies, WiseMonkey... YES, that's the game, and YES I actually DO plan to plunk out the $20 for the paid version (I believe this will be the first time I've ever paid for ANY video game, lol).

As for how long you can play the free version, there wasn't any time limit for me, and I was doing fairly well... It let me get to a fairly advanced level before it said I'd have to buy the paid version to play any more, and showed WAY MORE ZANINESS that would ensue with the paid version... And I was literally OBSESSED for more than five hours straight, lol. I mean, I didn't even get up to get something to drink or use the bathroom that whole time.

It's NOT all that monotonous once it gets into different levels and areas and whatnot, and you get different weapons and scenarios... And newer, faster zombies come along, like the "Michael Jackson dancer with his entourage," or the football player (who is HARD to kill)... But then you have things like exploding mushrooms that will take out half the yard at one time, IF you have them "charged up" (you can use fungal plants only at night).

I downloaded it from one of the daily email links I get from either ZDNet or PCWorld (I don't remember which -- think it was PCWorld), but they were CRAZY about it. The animated character (Crazy Dave, purporting to be the game creator) who pops up between some rounds to talk to ya, is almost as much fun as the game.

WiseMonkey, I'd highly recommend at least trying the free demo! I'm waiting until I have more free time to go back and actually buy it, lol. THEN I might load it on my laptop and take it to a garden club meeting. :D
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-04-2009, 02:48 AM

Sounds great.

My mother was obsessed with Peggle when it was released, and that was also by PopCap games - she managed to do everything in both Peggle and Peggle Nights... :O

Might have to introduce her to this now. :)

The Wise Monkey

06-04-2009, 05:11 AM

Update on SSDs: http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/super-talent-intel-ssd,news-31256.html

The Indilinx controllers seem to be able to match Intel in some cases, so it will be interesting to see how they perform in benchmarks.

JeffAHayes19

06-04-2009, 05:07 PM

Update on the new Core i7 950 and 975 processors...

I was looking at my latest email newsletter from Costco last night, and decided to see what was the latest with them on computers...

While there, I saw that you can configure your own HP computer through Costco, so I decided to see what my options are with a Core i7 system. They're already offering Core i7 systems with the 950 and 975 processors -- they still offered the 940, as well, but NOT the 965 at all, if memory serves.

When I subsequently went to the HP site to "play" configure a system, they're not offering the newer processors at their site, yet Costco is. I'm wondering if you do one of those builds on the Costco site if you'll have to wait two or three months to get it.
Jeff

Wellllll... I just decided to snoop around a little at NewEgg, and guess what? http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010340343%201051744913&name=LGA%201366 Yep! They also have the both new Core i7 processors for sale, and they have them listed as "new arrivals." When you click on them, there's nothing listed about having to wait for them, so apparently Intel has decided to go ahead and put them on the market... Funniest of all, in the case of the 950 (the faster replacement for the 940), they have it for $5 less than the 940. The only one they have listed as "while they last" is the 920, even though all three of the original have been discontinued, and the 920 is the last one Intel plans to phase out, from what I've read. In the case of the 975, they're selling it at $40 more than the 965.

As it appears there will be no replacement for the 920, since Intel wants there to be "a gap" between the Core i7 and Core i5 lines to make the i5 another sort of "level" for consumers, and the new Core i7 950 is both faster than the 940 and slightly cheaper (for now), the question sort of becomes... do I step up?
Jeff

And THIS: http://www.okoromedia.com/model.asp?model=GX300&gclid=CMLRta6V8poCFRIeDQod9SczeQ#pcf is the kinda PURE CRAP "specialty computer manufacturers" try to sell ya if you want to BUY a "high-end" media center computer! Take a look at the specs, and especially the PRICE! ACK!!! I can't stop laughing!!!

JeffAHayes19

06-05-2009, 11:32 PM

Not to be a pain, and put too fine a point on this whole Radeon 4870 2 GB issue, but I've found two different versions at Newegg -- a 256-bit and a 512-bit... Except for the 512-bit version having twice the bandwidth and being $150 more expensive after rebate ($224 vs. $379), I don't see any difference between them -- well, the 512-bit version also says you need a minimum 650-watt power supply, vs. 500 watts for the 256 version.

At any rate, here are direct links for the two cards, with the less expensive one linked first:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102826

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102768

They also have the 1 GB card for $179, but it's also 256-bit, and if I'm going to get 256-bit, anyway, for $45 more I might as well add the extra Gigabyte, I think.

The biggest issue for me, besides getting great video performance, is that I also want a card with an HDMI output. Both the 1 GB and 2 GB 256-bit versions have the HDMI output, along with a VGA output and a DVI output; The more expensive 512-bit 2 GB version has only dual-DVI, with an HDMI converter plug (but converters won't include the audio, although that's not usually an issue for me). At any rate, I STILL want an HDMI output.

I've not been able to find ANY of the really high-end Radeon cards with anything but dual-DVI and an S-Video output. I'm using a DVI-HDMI cable to feed the monitor I'm using right now. I'd prefer a direct HDMI feed.

At any rate, do you techie folks (like WiseMonkey) think the first, cheaper, 2 GB 256-bit Sapphire card might be a good compromise for someone like me, who really DOESN'T quite need "everything" for gaming, but still wants a really good experience PLUS an HDMI output? With it currently on sale (and me already having the money to do this build today, if Windows 7 was ready), I could go ahead and buy it, and since I have a 500-watt PS in my system, I could test it to make sure it's not DOA, then put it back in the box until I'm ready to do the rest of the build.
Jeff

UPDATE: I just finished going through the reviews on the cheaper card at Newegg. There are 28 5-star reviews, 3 4-star, 3-3-star, 1-2-star and 1 1-star. I didn't read all of the 5-star, since if they really LOVE it, they love it. I read several, though -- including some of the most recent, including one just posted by a builder who built a Core i7 920 system using Windows 7, and he LOVES it. Of course I read all the ones below 5-star, to see what the gripes were, and most were either minor, hotheads, or things that just don't apply to me. Unless WiseMonkey or someone gives me a good reason, I'll likely go with this card. I have until June 15 if I want to get the $20 rebate (although that doesn't mean Newegg won't sell out before then).
Jeff

RickyTick

06-08-2009, 11:59 AM

Jeff
The Intel X25-M 80gb SSD is on sale today only between 3pm and midnight Pacific Time Zone for $289. Plus ram is 15% off on Monday and Tuesday.

JeffAHayes19

06-08-2009, 02:52 PM

Jeff
The Intel X25-M 80gb SSD is on sale today only between 3pm and midnight Pacific Time Zone for $289. Plus ram is 15% off on Monday and Tuesday.

WHERE?!?
WHO?!?!?

I may very well just JUMP on that (even though I still have a sneaking suspicion my boot drive needs closer to 120 GB, and the OCZ Vertex is a close second in all but one important benchmark -- 90% behind the Intel drive in that one, though -- and it's a BIG one)!!! Still, I think I could get by for a GOOD, LONG WHILE with an 80 GB boot drive, the way I plan to economize on boot drive space.

I just checked NewEgg, since they're in California -- I know it's not quite 1 p.m. there, yet, but there was NO mention of it. Didn't bother to check TigerDirect (or any of SystemMax's OTHER brands, which now also include CompUSA AND Circuit City), since they're based out of Flagler Beach, Fla.

Get back to me, ASAP, on the who, please. I may just be ready to JUMP on about half the components... NOT gonna make the mistake of spreading out the rest to the point that I can't send things back for RMA if parts don't fit, but if I jump TODAY on the SSD, I'll likely go ahead and get that video card and a few other things I'm settled on (like the 920 processor), RAM, then take a couple more days sorting out the case, motherboard, second hard drive, DVD and power supply.

THANKS!
Jeff

RickyTick

06-08-2009, 05:09 PM

JeffAHayes19

06-08-2009, 11:52 PM

oops sorry. :D

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167005&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL060809&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL060809-_-SolidStateDisks-_-E0B-_-20167005&cm_lm=remoore1964@gmail.com

For the ram, you have to enter Promo code "memorysale15", without the quotation marks of course.

I could forward my Newegg promo email to you, if you don't mind posting your email address here for a little while.

ACK!!! I NEVER mind sharing my email -- especially not for stuff like this! Been sorta outta the loop the latter part of the day, though. Mom's in the hospital, so I was away for late afternoon, then decided to take in a movie... Had this page up, so I'd catch a reply, but even doing a REFRESH it took me a minute to realize it had flipped to a THIRD PAGE, lol.

It's email removed. I've got just two hours left before Midnight, Pacific... Hope you're watching, lol.

Thanks!
Jeff

Never mind, RickyTick... Heck, it appears I got it and somehow accidentally opened it and closed it without taking a CLOSE LOOK, lol... It was already in my OLD mail, lol.

At any rate, thanks MUCH for bringing it to my attention!
Jeff

JeffAHayes19

06-09-2009, 02:30 AM

You put a bug in my ear, and now my BRAIN IS FULL OF WORMS!!! :p

Just a bit more than a MINUTE shy of the 3 a.m. (Eastern time) deadline I finally hit the "submit order" button... for the Intel SSD drive... AND 12 GB of that OCZ 1600 Mhz RAM WiseMonkey said was the best deal (he REALLY looks to be right about that), AND that 2 GB 256-bit Sapphire video card they also had on sale... AND a 300 GB WD Velociraptor (which was ALSO on sale for less than $200!), AND the Motherboard you recommend for the high-end build (also on sale -- FREE SHIPPING with almost EVERYTHING, too -- total shipping ended up coming to $7.91, and it was getting so close to the wire, I didn't have time to figure out just WHAT they charged it on, lol)... PLUS, I got some freebies with some of those orders -- TWO free 4 GB flash drives with the two 6 GB OCZ DIMM pkgs; 6 free issues of CPU Magazine...

Oh, I also finally "bit the bullet" and got the Core i7 920 processor... I SERIOUSLY considered the 950, what with it being almost a year newer in the development pipeline and having some minor tweaks that are supposed to make it more easily overclocked (plus the fact that it's $5 cheaper than the 940, but also 133 Mhz faster), but I did the math, and it was STILL (at stock speed) only 13 percent faster than the 920 for a bit more than a 100% price increase... Also, Newegg had stats for the 920 such as voltage range and specifics on the L2 cache, which weren't available (at least not on Newegg) for the 950... And the ONLY Motherboard they paired it with was more expensive than the one both they, and you, recommend for the 920... I'm thinking with the stories of what can be done with the 920, plus the fact that I'll likely be pretty happy with it at stock speed, at least in the beginning, I probably made the wisest move. I'll try to install my CPU in such a way that I can always replace it, later, if I want to.

One thing I MEANT to put in my order (actually looked at it at one point, but then forgot), was an internal DVD writer, since I think they had free shipping on that, as well, and it was like $24. Other than that, and possibly some cables and some thermal compound and fans, all I'm missing for a complete build, I think, is a case (I don't quite get it why most of these cases are $200 and up -- some WAY up), and a power supply...

Total spent tonight: $1,450.53 -- not too bad for a system spec'd out with a couple of the fastest hard drives and a smokin' video card, I think... I came THIS CLOSE to getting 2 of those Intel drives, but I couldn't quite figure out what to do with them, unless I ran them in RAID-1 (I think it's RAID-1 where all information is redundantly copied for security).

I'd love to read any thoughts, opinons or comments.
Jeff

P.S. Do you folks THINK I can safely build this system and begin running it WITHOUT paying for an OS by downloading another copy of Windows 7 RC 7100, installing it on the Intel X25-m, and using just THAT until the RTM is ready? I had thought about waiting to buy the last hard drive until 7 WENT RTM to see if I could get it OEM while purchasing a hard drive for build purposes, but forgot that. I guess I can still get a small drive and try that, when the time comes?

P.P.S. I took a screenshot (using Screenjot -- love that program), of my screen with the original order detail on it just before I pressed submit (no personal details on the screen). I'd be more than happy to post it here if someone would like a looksee.

The Wise Monkey

06-09-2009, 02:53 AM

JeffAHayes19

06-09-2009, 09:28 AM

Glad you finally took the plunge - that will be a smoking system, and that is a fantastic deal on the Intel SSD. Just to confirm you made the right choice with that SSD, here is a comparison of new vs used done by The Tech Report: http://techreport.com/articles.x/16979

I'm running Windows 7 RC at home, and it has been solid as a rock, so I can definitely recommend it.

I've had a few driver issues with Windows 7, so far (such as not being able to print to my HP printer), but posting to the Windows 7 forum, they said that if I simply download and install the 64-bit Vista HP drivers they will probably work (this is a MICROSOFT EMPLOY moderator telling me this). He said almost ALL current Vista drivers will work -- MAJOR change from the XP -- Vista migration NIGHTMARE, lol! I haven't gotten around to trying it yet, but I will.

Another quick note... Just after posting about all my acquisitions at NewEgg last night, I flipped back over to the high-end build page to see what else I might get and while I was there I decided to click on that motherboard link just to make SURE I'd gotten the right one (there are SO MANY with similar names). Well, I HADN'T. I'd gotten the one with only 4 DIMM slots on it! It was only 45 minutes after my purchase, but NewEgg had already charged my purchase, so it was too late to change it online, so I had to get up here before 9 a.m. (HIGHLY UNUSUAL for THIS night owl, lol) and try to call them before it was boxed and shipped and get them to change the motherboard part of the order. I just did, and they did. It added another $90 to the order, but I'm sure it's worth it.

I WOULD HAVE gone ahead and added that Corsair power supply, a DVD writer and case to the order and finished it off while I was on the phone, but that would have actually constituted making A PHONE ORDER, and they don't allow that, so I'll have to do the rest in a separate order I'm putting together.

Case (and fans) are a BIG question mark for me. I think some of these cases seem WAY too expensive. All I want is a case that has enough slots, ports, fans and adequate cooling... Speaking of which, it's kinda butt-ugly, but the price is reasonable -- ESPECIALLY when bundled with the Corsair power supply recommended for this very build -- and it has pretty much everything I want and need, plus looks easy to build in and access, with lots of cooling and also the see-through window on one side, so I can see what's going on, so I'm seriously considering the COOLER MASTER HAF 932 RC-932-KKN1-GP Black Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119160

You get an extra $30 off when bundled with the Corsair power supply, which is already $60 off, plus an extra $10 mail-in rebate. Other than the looks (I REALLY hate that red light -- think I'd be looking for blue lights to replace that, lol), my biggest issue is the SIZE of the case. It's 4.5" taller AND deeper than my current Dell XPS 410 case, and a full 2" wider. As I keep my case on my desk, and space is at a premium, I'll have to do a bit of re-arranging to fit it, but it can be done. One thing that kept one $99 Antec and several other cases out of contention was a lack of eSata ports, as I have TWO external eSata drives. I actually added eSata to THIS computer on the VERY cheap by simply plugging two cables into my last two available SATA slots and buying a 2-slot eSATA adapter plate to screw in where a card would normally go... Works great for about $15, including two eSata cards -- all from NewEgg! (At first, I was going to buy a card, until I saw that some of them plugged into existing SATA slots, in addition to a PCI or PCI(e) slot and that got me to thinking, and THINK I did, lol).

Sooooooooo, any thoughts on that Coolermaster case? Anything better within reasonable price range? I'm looking at the $24 LG DVD writer. I think NewEgg has only one at that price. I doubt I'll put more than one in my system -- may move my Blu-Ray writer over from the Dell to the new system.

What else will I need? Any sort of thermal compound? Extra cables? ROUND cables? How can I be sure a motherboard will fit a case? Is that pretty standard? Is there anything I'm forgetting? Oh yeah, CARD reader... Any thoughts on THAT? And what about BLUETOOTH and Wifi? Those are nice to have, if they're not too pricey.

Thanks again for all your help, guys!
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-09-2009, 10:02 AM

The Coolermaster Cosmos looks awesome, and is only about $20 more. However, this would be an issue in terms of size.

How about this Lian Li case?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112155

Your heatsink will come with some thermal paste, so you don't need to worry about that. You could always scrape it off and apply some other stuff if you wanted, but there isn't much point.

The only extra thing I can really recommend is to invest in some cable ties to keep everything organised. :)

JeffAHayes19

06-09-2009, 07:43 PM

Thanks for the suggestions, WiseMonkey. You still didn't say what you think about the first CoolerMaster case, though (aside from what I said about it, lol).

That Cosmos DOES look awesome, but GEESH it's HUGE. My other problem with both it and the Lian case, however, is that both have swinging front doors, which require even MORE space in order to access the front panels. I really don't care for that in a case... Not only does it require extra free space in front of the computer, it's also just one more thing to accidentally break off (or bend the hinges -- and then it won't close any more), lol, for a klutz like me. :o

I'm still looking... probably will be ALL NIGHT LONG, lol. Newegg says they already shipped my first order, but it's too early to get a tracking number, so I'm in a sort of "shipment limbo" at present. Normally I keep a close eye on shipments as they wind their way across the country, lol.
Jeff

RickyTick

06-09-2009, 09:20 PM

I don't like front doors either on a case.

Here's a couple of cases to look at
ATCS 840 Black Full Tower
Thermaltake Spedo VI9001N2Z
Antec 902
Antec 1200

JeffAHayes19

06-09-2009, 10:28 PM

Ummmm, what about THIS Case??? ;) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129056

I'm not QUITE done looking yet, but I'm kinda leaning towards this case... Not sure if I'll need to commit to the 850-watt Antec power supply they bundle with it, though, or if that 750-watt Corsair recommended is still an option. I'm willing to go either way, but after reading almost every single review for this case on the NewEgg site one of the few almost universal complaints is cabling being too short, so I'm thinking if you get it with the recommended Antec power supply, perhaps that's not as much of an issue?
Jeff

I'm also a bit intrigued (interested) in THIS CoolerMaster Storm Sniper case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119194, although it's almost as big as the Cosmos. I kinda like the blue light (better than red -- blue's my favorite color -- although some comments say it's BLINDINGLY bright), really like the 2 eSATA, 2 USB and Firewire ports, and that little knob on the top just looks like FUN to play with, lol, although I THINK all it does is control your fan speeds. It's about the same price as the Skeleton, though, and even though it has more ports, and some really nice looking internal bay connections, that Skeleton just looks so darned sharp.

RickyTick

06-09-2009, 11:11 PM

JeffAHayes19

06-09-2009, 11:36 PM

Computer cases are so subjective. Some people like that skeloten case, but I think its butt-ugly. :) That cosmos case is really nice though.

I like this case a lot too.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119160

Ummmmm, Ricky? That's the first case I posted... the one I was asking WiseMonkey's opinion on (which I never DID get, lol), before I began my "neverending case adventure," lol. Check above and see if it's not the very same link, lol.

I STILL like that case a good bit, except for the red light. I think I like the CoolerMaster Storm Sniper just a bit better, though (it has one more eSATA port on it, but not quite as much "see-through visibility" on the side, and is the same price. Both have very similar interior drive bay designs.

I have to admit I disagree with you about the Antec case... I'm in the "Wow, that looks WAY COOL!" crowd. BUT, I'm concerned that I may have issues getting everything mounted and whatnot, with that big 4870 card, and I'm probably going to add another regular PCI card, or two, for other things... Just not sure how tight it will be and if I'll have room to work in there.
Jeff

P.S. I was curious what OTHER builders in this forum might have had to say about the Antec Skeleton, so I just did a search. Turns out this is the ONLY THREAD in the entire forum where it's been mentioned, lol.

P.P.S. In A FEW of the 71 reviews at Newegg, folks complained that the Skeleton comes with virtually NO documentation or owner's manual (and only one or two happened to mention that they were able to get it via download at Antec's website). Well, I dediced to try that (not the first time I've downloaded the owner's manual of something I was considering buying to help me decide if I really wanted it, or not), and I'm here to tell you that not only is it quick and easy to get the manual (view from their site via .pdf or save it to your hard drive, like I did, after first viewing it), but when you first hit their website, there's a SPLASH PAGE with an array of images, with the Antec Skeleton PROMINENTLY DISPLAYED in the MIDDLE of that page! It appears Antec is REALLY PROUD of this case, lol. I'd say after pretty well reading through the manual (skimmed some of it, but I read the better part) that although building a system in that case might require a bit of forethought as to what to do in what order, it doesn't really look too difficult if you follow their instructions -- pretty simple, actually. It's not a case I'd want to be having to crack open and add and subtract things to on a regular basis, but then my plan is to get this system pretty much how I want it from Day 1... And then again, with my last computer (the one before my current Dell XPS 410 -- an HP m376n Media Center computer -- nice setup for late 2003 -- P4 Dual-Core 2.66 Ghz with 1.5 Ghz stock RAM (was supposedly PC 2700, but after I'd actually upgraded it all to 3.5 Ghz at that assumption and had to take some DIMMs out to do the last bit of upgrading, I looked at them and realized it actually had PC 3200 DIMMs in it, which wasn't even documented)... came with 120 GB hard drive and a single-density DVD (dual-density was still pretty rare then), plus a DVD-ROM/CD-writer and a card reader -- for about $1,300, including 17" Samsung flat screen monitor and decent HP printer -- almost 6 years ago (after rebates -- was almost $2,000 before rebates -- was a Black Friday deal)... Anyway, when just replacing RAM in that computer, I sometimes had to unhook cables and all sorts of stuff to get at it.. To get to those last two DIMM slots, I had to actually open up my front bay and slide the whole bay, drives and all, out of the way... Really POOR planning of the type likely thought up by engineers looking to give the service department work. I figure if I could deal with that, I can easily work my around a case as OPEN as the Antec Skeleton, if I decide to go that way... I think it's gonna be either that or the CoolerMaster case Storm Sniper, at this point.

As far as expansion cards go, do any of you true experts think it would be possible to LOAD UP that Gigabyte EX58 UD5 board with cards in a case that "cramped," or do you think I'd be having to skip slots? All I'm really thinking about is maybe a sound card, and/or a Wifi/bluetooth card... While I'm at it, does anyone think I'd need to order any extra cables for any of the case-to-motherboard connections, or case-to-drive connections?
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-10-2009, 03:16 AM

JeffAHayes19

06-10-2009, 01:17 PM

Hey, give me a chance, we in the UK do need to sleep sometimes... :p

I have to say that I side with Ricky on this one in thinking that the Antec Skeleton is just...meh. Not a big fan.

The HAF case you posted is very nice, and you could always replace the red LEDs with blue ones - I assume it is just part of the fan, in which case it is very easily replaced.

I say go with it - I'm sure you will be satisfied. :)

LMAO, WiseMonkey... Hope I didn't offend. You just told me a couple of cases you DID like without saying anything about the one I asked about... I thought maybe it was just "payback" for how LONG I took to respond to your question about "Plants vs. Zombies," lol. At any rate, with both the HAF and the Storm Sniper being the same price, with similar builds and configurations and both being CoolerMaster cases, I may click the "compare" boxes by each of them and do a "side-by-side" at NewEgg... Or I may ignore both of you (at my peril, lol) and get "Skeletonized," lol. Will likely cost me a bit more if I do, though, because the CoolerMasters, while $10 more than the on-sale Skeleton, have a great combo deal with that Corsair power supply, but the combo deal with Antec's power supply isn't quite as good, and Antec HIGHLY recommends you use a power supply with an 80 mm fan on it to fit their case (the Corsair has a 120, I think). Their manual says if you don't use one of that size you need to mount it upside-down, which I don't like.

Flip side, although I don't yet know how, I was considering overclocking the 920, which to my understanding you can safely do with just the built-in 250 mm fan on the Skeleton case. Both those CoolerMaster cases also have A LOT of big fans on them, but not quite THAT (several 120 mms). If I decide to try overclocking the 920, do you think I'll need some extra CPU cooler, and what would that be? I really DON'T want to get into something "exotic," like liquid cooling (which can leak), or anything that has to be soldered. Would a case with lots of fans be enough? And should I buy one of those thermal monitoring units?
Jeff

P.S. My first order left Ontario, CA, at 6 a.m. today, and arrived in West Columbia, SC at 1 p.m. (where it still sits a little more than an hour later). That's just 90 miles away, and if I didn't need to get a shower and a hair cut and go visit my mom, who's in the hospital this week, I could probably DRIVE down and pick it up. I've seen UPS let a 3-day order (expected delivery date is Friday) just sit for a day, just to make sure it took 3 days, lol. No big deal. Without the case and power supply, about all I'll be able to do is look at the pretty boxes, lol.

RickyTick

06-10-2009, 02:53 PM

If you think you might overclock, it would be highly recommended to add a cpu cooler. Go ahead and do it now during assembly. If you don't, and you want to add the cooler later, you'd probably have to completely remove the motherboard.

Here's a terrific review of coolers for the 1366 processors.
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=285&Itemid=62

JeffAHayes19

06-10-2009, 11:52 PM

ACK! ACK!! ACK!!!

Now there's WAX all over my walls because my BRAIN just exploded out through my EARS!!!!! :eek:

OK, seriously, what do you MODERATORS do, or suggest? Do either of YOU have a Core i7 system, and if so, do you overclock it? What does this do to the LIFE of the processor? I was HOPING with all the STOCK fans in that CoolerMaster HAF case (two of them @ 230mm, plus others), that would be enough, but I guess not. Most of those coolers look like some kind of METAL MONSTER you have to sort of "screw and glue" onto the top of your CPU (and I'm guessing you have to disassmble part of the built-in fan/heat sink with most of them to do it).

Should I just FORGET overclocking? The only one in that review that looked interesting to me actually WAS a "liquid cooling system," but it didn't LOOK like a "liquid cooling system," and NewEgg doesn't have it. I haven't checked TigerDirect or any of the others, yet.

If I spend much money on CPU coolers and whatnot, I may as well have just gotten the 950 processor to start with, lol -- especially since it lets you overclock two different ways, not just one (although I admit I don't really understand how to do the ONE yet, lol).

If I'm going overboard for a first build, just tell me, PLEASE, lol... I'm having enough trouble right now just picking out which card reader to buy. :o
Jeff

THIS is that liquid cooler from the review you linked I'm thinking about, RickyTick, but I'm not sure where the display unit goes... how you route that part to the OUTSIDE... http://www.avadirect.com/product_details_parts.asp?PRID=12697

The Wise Monkey

06-11-2009, 02:52 AM

JeffAHayes19

06-11-2009, 08:46 AM

OK, most of the CPU coolers are just a case of plugging them into the board in the correct slots, as you would with any other cooler. However, some of them have a backplate because they are so heavy duty which you just place on the other side of the motherboard and screw the cooler onto it with the CPU and motherboard sandwiched inbetween.

I don't have a core i7 system, but the 920 is renowned for being an excellent overclocker with very little effort. For example, you could stay with the stock cooler and still overclock a bit and your CPU shouldn't get too hot. Plus even if you get to 3.2GHz, that is still a pretty big performance increase, and the stock cooler should be fine at that speed.

I think I'll just stick with the stock cooler and do temperature monitoring, with that HAF 932 case (which it turns out has THREE 230 mm fans). When I hit a point where the processor starts to get too hot, I'll back off.

I've read reports from folks who claim to have overclocked up to as far as 4 Ghz with no heat issues, so I should be safe because I don't plan to "get greedy."
Jeff

I finally got the rest of my order placed... REALLY flip-flopped on that case, between the CoolerMaster Haf and the Storm Sniper (the Storm Sniper was more expensive, but had free shipping, but also had a little smaller/less in fans and no see-through window -- drive bays were almsot identical; the Haf was on sale for less, but no free shipping, but had a nice "combo discount" with the Corsair power supply that didn't apply with the Storm Sniper). I finally played my shopping cart both ways, and it looked like my price ended up better with the Haf, so that's what I got, but that was LAST NIGHT, and I still hadn't decided on a card reader... Got back to making THAT decision this afternoon, and just after I added the card reader and was ready to go to checkout, I noticed my total price had changed... Turned out the DVD writer I'd picked out had been taken out of my shopping cart due to "limited availability," AND the combo price for my case and power supply had increased $10, as the sale on the Haf case had decreased by $10 overnight (I would think once you have something in your shopping cart, the price would be "locked in," but I guess not). I ended up spending about $3 more for a relatively new and unproven (NO reviews, yet) Samsung DVD writer... Many of their other DVD writers below $30 were IDE, which I'd prefer to avoid, where SATA is available.

Still, even with almost $34 in shipping costs (shipping was FREE with that Storm Sniper case, but the lack of a combo deal negated the savings) I got the case, power supply DVD drive and a sweet looking card reader that also adds three more USB ports, another eSata port and another Firewire port for a grand total (shipping included) of $319.58 -- AFTER I paid an extra $3.99 for rush order processing... Funny, I didn't mind paying that, but I just couldn't stomach going from $33 to $93 for 3-day to 2-day delivery... If I did that, I think I'd just go ahead and spend the extra $15 to get it to overnight status, lol.

So I guess I'll have all the other stuff tomorrow, but will be sitting here looking at parts and/or boxes until Monday, or more likely Tuesday, before I can really do anything with it... Or -- WAIT! I CAN install that RAM AND CPU on the motherboard SANS case, can't I??? Maybe even the video card, too??? Would it make it any harder or more dangerous to install the motherboard with the CPU, RAM and video card already installed? For that matter, although I couldn't put them in the case, I could likely also hook up those two hard drives... Of course with no power supply, there's no way I could test any of this. I DO have the 375-watt PS I took out of my Dell XPS when I upgraded IT. I wonder if I could use that for basic system testing until I got the Corsair and the case?

Answers! I need Answers! (probably TRANQUILIZERS, too, but I just took two Clonazepam an hour ago, and I'm STILL here obsessing -- just having a bit of a harder time typing without typos, lol).

Thoughts?

RickyTick, I'm not sure where in NC you're located, but if you help me enough, you're invited to come and play and have a few drinks or whatever on me... Might share some movies with ya, or something... Name your pleasure -- you have my email!
Jeff

RickyTick

06-11-2009, 07:10 PM

Thoughts?

Jeff...breathe in, breathe out...and again...and once more. OK, better...right? :D

Overclocking does put stress on the cpu and will certainly shorten it's life. I don't have an i7, but I have overclocked my Q6600 by 25%. I couldn't have done it without adding the Vendetta II cooler. You'll never get anywhere near 4ghz with the stock cpu cooler, and it really doesn't matter. This rig is going to be sooooo fast right out of the box, that you'll have no need for overclocking.

If you have the mobo, then you can go install the cpu and the ram. I would wait on the video card until after it's in the case. The video card is rather large and would make the mobo heavy and awkward.

btw, I live just outside of Charlotte.

JeffAHayes19

06-12-2009, 04:50 PM

I don't know about the breathing, RickyTick, but I think I DO finally feel better, lol.

Not even sure if I mentioned this, but during all this my Mom (it's just me and her here in the house, and she's 77 and not so well), got even LESS so well the latter part of last week... Saturday afternoon, she was having trouble getting back into bed, and I had to lift her legs for her, then she felt hot and asked me to take her temperature, and when I asked her where she kept the thermometer, she said, "I don't know where THEY put it." (the THEY was nurse's aids, as she was delerious, and thought she was in the hospital). When she subsequently fell out of the bed, I called 911 and had her taken to the E.R. Turned out she'd had a minor infection somewhere and it had gotten into her bloodstream and she had septicemia, which was affecting her whole body, including her brain (can be DEADLY). I just got her home yesterday afternoon, after 5 days in the hospital on IV antibiotics, and she's MUCH better... So I've been obsessing over computer stuff while simultaneously worried about a sick mom, lol.

Anyway, UPS is SUPPOSED to be delivering that first shipment today... been "out for delivery" since 5:22 a.m. today, but still not here at 5:41 p.m. (and Spartanburg AIN'T a big city) -- Speaking of which, Ricky, you and I are not much more than an hour's drive away... maybe we can compare notes one day. My case is shipping from Edison, N.J., with a projected Monday delivery, but my power supply, DVD drive and card reader are coming from California, with a projected Tuesday delivery. (Of course I could have paid an extra $75 and had everything today, but money is MONEY to me, lol).

I just called my local electronics shop about anti-static mats. They had just closed for the day, but are open in the morning. Think I'll get one before I play with putting in the processor and RAM, just to be on the safe side. I'll also use my little anti-static wrist strap, for double protection (bought that at the same place). I'll take your advice and wait until I mount the motherboard to put the video card in RickyTick.

Before I finalized my order, I seriously considered a few other add-ons, like wifi or bluetooth, but I really couldn't find anything at NewEgg that looked that good (mostly, the Wifi came ON motherboards). The keyboard and mouse I'm going to use are Logitech and COME with their own USB Bluetooth dongle. I got to thinking adding any more peripheral cards in a brand new system that will be running a brand new OS that's not even RTM yet, and therefore doesn't REALLY have tried and tested components for it yet just MIGHT not be a very good idea, lol. And adding cards later is a SNAP, literally. I've got EVERYTHING I need for a complete system, so I'm sticking with it.

Jeff

No sooner did I finish my post than the doorbell rang, and it was UPS. I opened the box (and all the boxes within), and everything appears to be what I ordered, and OK as far as I can tell (except that WD Velociraptor didn't even COME in a box -- bare drive just wrapped in bubble wrap -- talk about OEM, lol!) Been there before, though, I bought a Quantum 10,000 RPM drive for a Mac in 2000 when I was upgrading a Mac I had (before I gave up on Mac), and it came with NOTHING, like that, no mounting hardware, not instructions -- NOTHING... I ended up having to call Quantum for help. I know a good deal more now than I did then, though, and between that, and you folks, I think I'll be OK... By the way, THEN it was $500 for an 18 GB 10,000 RPM drive -- and I shopped around FOR A WHOLE MONTH to get a deal THAT GOOD, lol!

JeffAHayes19

06-14-2009, 12:19 AM

I found out what UPS means this morning (well YESTERDAY morning at this point). My NewEgg UPS Tracking said my case arrived at the local UPS distribution warehouse (which has a customer service area) at 4:59 a.m. today, so I drove by there a bit after 11 a.m., only to be told that although the box with the case in it is SURELY in a truck somewhere on the premises, and although I had ALL the paperwork necessary to prove the shipment belongs to me, I CANNOT pick it up there. I MUST wait until they get around to delivering it Monday (which is usually close to 6 p.m. in my neighborhood).

I think I know what UPS REALLY stands for now, but out of decorum, I won't spell it out, lol.
Jeff

JeffAHayes19

06-14-2009, 10:16 PM

OK, now that I have 2806 Pins to s l i d e into 2806 holes (oooh, just the thought of all those pins going into all those holes makes me HOT! :p), not counting a bunch of power connections and a video card and a DVD player and card reader and all that jazz...

Ummmmm, wheredoIgofromhere???

Case WILL be here tomorrow, sometime.

Power supply most DEFINITELY won't be here until Tuesday, so I won't be able to complete until then (I actually haven't done anything yet). My biggest concern is WHAT DO I DO ONCE I GET ALL THE HARD DRIVES AND EVERYTHING HOOKED UP AND INSTALLED?

My concern is about the BIOS. I read the section from Rob's online book about the BIOS, but it didn't tell me a whole lot. I get the impression you have to initially flash the BIOS, or something, when you first turn everything on. I'm going to probably start up with a DVD of RC 7100 and do a Clean Install of that. I may have to end up buying a current version of one of the Vista flavors, but I sure don't want to if it'll run OK on Windows 7 RC 7100 until the real thing is available.

The first time I downloaded RC 7100, it was a breeze. The longest part of the process was finding an ISO burner, getting it installed and burning the ISO image on a DVD, lol -- seriously. So as long as I can get both the DVD player AND the boot drive hooked up OK, I should be able to get it installed, I figure.

So what else do I knead to no? ;)

The Wise Monkey

06-15-2009, 03:18 AM

You don't really need to flash the BIOS, and all of the default settings should be fine for the moment. You can always change them later if need be. Just make sure that the boot order is sorted out (DVD drive first so you can install the OS) and that your hard drives are recognised correctly.

JeffAHayes19

06-16-2009, 08:47 PM

OK, now I have everything I need -- even the thermal grease nobody told me about until I read it in my Gigabyte owner's manual, lol -- but you can probably get small quantities of that at a local electronics shop for a buck or two, rather than spending $9 for that big tube they sell at NewEgg.

All I need to do if finish reading that manual, get over my jitters (sipping just a little bit of Courvoisier right now, for that purpose), and get way from THIS computer and the TV and buckle down and work on THAT computer.

I have all the parts at the other end of the house (only place I have room to work on it, at least to start), so I'll be upstairs doing the build until I get it up and running... Once it's a done deal, I'll hook it into my current network as a SECOND computer for the time being, since it won't have a fully operational operating system, for now (Windows 7 RC 7100). Right now, I have a 2003 HP Windows Media Center XP PC sitting in that spot, but I rarely even turn it on any more and just volunteered to give it to someone in my garden club last night who's never had a computer and is just THINKING about going online (it's stilly a perfectly serviceable computer -- 2.66 Ghz P4 Dual core -- maxed out to 3.5 GB of RAM, 120 GB hard drive, 128 MB ATI Radeon AGP video card, 10,100,1000? Ethernet HD Audio) For its day, it was a pretty decent system. I just will have no further use for it after this... If I didn't have a good friend who needed a computer, it would be another paperweight, because I won't throw them out or sell them, lol.

Anyway, I anticipated getting to work shortly.
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-17-2009, 03:08 AM

Good luck. :)

JeffAHayes19

06-20-2009, 01:06 AM

I'm now bald, have lost my voice, and they're measuring all my walls for RUBBER! :p

Seriously, while I'm a lot more patient and "studious" than that, it's starting to wear thin. I've really taken my time with this build, but I'd likely be finished now if both Gigabyte AND CoolerMaster did better jobs with instruction manuals...

While I realize it's impossible to write their manual for every situation, as that motherboard could go in myriad cases, with myriad power supplies, I'm at a standstill right now, even though my COMMON SENSE tells me that I'm right and the manual is WRONG.

I have both of the two main power connectors hooked up (24-pin and 8-pin -- and that is ONE SWEET CASE -- false back panel with a removable back and holes everywhere so you can route the cables behind the false back, out of sight). Here's my STOPPING POINT PROBLEM!

After the MB manual tells you to hook up main power, it proceeds to talk about hooking up power to the system fans. The MB has about FIVE 4-pin or 3-pin spots labeled for fans. One 4-pin labeled CPU Fan, several others labeled SysFan 1, SysFan2, etc., and a 3-pin labeled NB Fan (for NorthBridge Fan). The thing is, other than the AMPLE FANS on this case (3 9-inch at 1,700 rpm and one 5.5 inch at 1,200 rpm -- two blowing in, two blowing out), the ONLY fan I can find INSIDE the case is the one on the CPU cooler, which HAS its own 4-pin connecter...

And HERE'S THE RUB. That ASTOUNDING Corsair Power Supply (and I really mean that -- it's a BEAUTY!) has AMPLE power connections for SATA and PCI-E, but other than those, it has exactly TWO long wires that are obviously intended for FANS -- BOTH of which terminate in a SINGLE (small -- like on the motherboard, and the CPU cooler) 4-pin connection, with 3 or 4 larger 4-pin connectors along the way. The big fans that came with the case ALL have the larger adaptors attached to their smaller cables for that purpose (i.e., plugging into those larger plugs).

ALL I CAN FIGURE is that the ONLY TWO plugs that really count in this situation are the one directly connected to the CPU cooler, and the one on the Motherboard LABELED CPU Fan, and that since neither the MB (which came with LOADS of supplemental cables for everything else -- like 6 SATA cables -- 2 with right-angle connectors on one end, both a SLI and a Crossfire connector, a supplemental dual eSATA rear port I doubt I'll even install that even includes POWER, in case you want to install an external SATA drive and POWER it from internal power, etc.). IF I really NEEDED to hook up all those extra fan connections, I THINK I'd have connectors to do it, wouldn't I?

I see NO other fans, anywhere, unless they're hidden somewhere (and VERY tiny!). I've separated out ALL my connecting wires -- including all the ones that came with the case, for the front panel, and figured out where just about EVERYTHING goes. I really HOPE I'm not missing something here. On the odd chance that I AM, I'm going to WAIT after I THINK I'm finished until someone Wiser than me replies to this, lol.

That MB really IS nice, and comes with LOTS of sweet extras, but the manual could use just a little bit more clarity. The one on the case could use A LOT MORE. I didn't actually GET that I was supposed to mount the MB on top of spacers, to start with. Thankfully, I didn't actually start mounting it, but it DID sit, bare, on top of that false back for a while -- ACK -- luckily, everything was hooked up to antistatic at the time.

By the way, the HAF in the case name stands for High Air Flow, and it really IS designed for high air flow!

I really think I've sort of "sussed this out on my own," as you might say "on your side of the pond," WiseMonkey. But I want "The WiseMonkey Seal of Approval." :D

Some day maybe I can pay you back for all your help with some Fish 'n' Chips or something. ;)
Jeff

OK, WAIT -- or PLEASE DON'T, if I'm wrong, lol. But when I went back upstairs and tried plugging that 4-pin connector at the end of the power-supply cord onto the end of the little plug from the CPU cooler, I instantly recognized a MAJOR PROBLEM -- they were BOTH MALE CONNECTORS (that doesn't work)... voila, THE LIGHTNING STRUCK (and No, I wasn't wearing an iPod with headphones hanging off my body, lol), but I suddenly realized that the plug from the CPU cooler is supposed to plug into the little 4-pin connector RIGHT NEXT TO IT on the MB that says "CPU Fan," DUH!!! So THEN, I started looking for OTHER 4-pin connectors on the board labeled FAN, but there was only one -- several with 3 pins, though -- then it suddenly DAWNED ON ME -- those are all PLUGS, NOT RECEPTACLES -- they're meant to POWER fans, not to be PLUGGED INTO from the power supply... They're for running little fans people INSTALL inside the CASE! DUH, AGAIN!!! So I really don't need to do ANYTHING with all those little pins except make sure I don't bend them (in case I need them later), or get pricked by them, since I have like A HURRICANE's worth of fans in the case I can hook up to the power supply directly (which I'd rather do, I think, using one of those cables, than run them off the pins on the MB, which I COULD do, but then that's that much more power drain off the MB -- no, WAIT -- if I run them DIRECTLY off the PS, I can't do speed control and stuff, can I?) ACK all this stuff gets complicated!

And the case has all these SINGLE-PIN connectors running to the front panel, and I've YET to find single-pin connections on the MB (for things like the Power-On LED and so forth) Think I'm gonna have to invest in a Sherlock Holmes-grade magnifying glass!
5:06 a.m. -- 6-20-06

******************************
12:05 a.m -- 6-21-06

Well, the MB manual DID address ALL THAT, so that was taken care of in the WEE HOURS this morning (like after 5:06 a.m. -- I guess I should say YESTERDAY morning, now). I seldom get to work until late at night... can concentrate better late at night... So now, all my fans but the one in the right side panel are connected (have to wait until I put it back on to connect that one... All the front panel connections are made... I bought a card reader that came with 3 USB connections, plus eSATA and Firewire, but I won't be able to use ANY of the USB connections because the only two spare USB connectors on the MB were used up with the front panel connectors for the case, lol (still nice to have spares, though -- I'll just cable-tie off those wires -- still have spare SATA and Firewire connections on the MB). Basically, all I have left to do now is put in that, the DVD drive, the two hard drives, hook up the SATA power (power supply came with like 10 or 12 SATA power connectors!) and SATA data cables for all 4 (plus the few other relevant cables for the card reader), put my Sapphire 4870 video card in and plug in the two PCI-E power connectors for IT, tie snug up and tie down my case cables and then tie off like a GADZILLION unused PS cables, lol, close the case, plug it in hit the power button and WATCH FOR SMOKE AND FLAMES!!! :eek:

Considering Independence Day is two weeks away (well it was until a few minutes ago), if the SMOKE AND FLAMES -- or even just smoke -- happen, you'll be able to hear my screams all the way "across the pond," Wise Monkey, :D but I THINK in my own, obsessive-compulsive way I've pretty much nailed it after a few spurious adventures down nefarious avenues, so to speak... Assuming I CAN get my nerve up, we will know before the morning is nigh.
Jeff

JeffAHayes19

06-21-2009, 01:13 AM

Less than two hours after my last posting I have all my peripherals in place and hooked up to the bus -- even the Power Supply hooked up to the Radeon card... Haven't run SATA power to the DVD or Velociraptor, yet, though... figure I might as well wait until I figure out HOW THE HECK I'm going to mount a 2.5" SSD that came with NO FRIGGIN' 3.5" MOUNTING HARDWARE!!!

And, I'm a DUMMY! I opened that danged drive up more than a week ago and SAW that it was like that, but just FIGURED I'D WORK SOMETHING OUT WHEN THE TIME CAME, DUH, or that THERE WOULD BE AN ADAPTER SOMEWHERE, DUH! The Velociraptor is THE SAME SIZE DRIVE, but IT comes in the 3.5" SATA mounting hardware, because it's customarily SOLD for mounting inside a desktop... But Intel, in their QUITE FINITE wisdom, simply ASSUMES that EVERYONE who buys the SSD is going to mount it inside a NOTEBOOK (the instructions that came with the drive were ONLY for mounting it inside a NOTEBOOK)... And, AGAIN, LIKE A FREAKIN' DUMMY, all week long, when the local electronics store was OPEN (not open tomorrow/today), I didn't bother to look into getting a 3.5" SATA mounting hardware case.

So NOW, I guess I'll look at Radio Shack's website for the QUITE remote possibility THEY carry one, and if they don't, see what NewEgg gets for one (I'm SURE I don't have an old one I can scavenge), and then probably wait until Monday morning to see if the local place has them before overnighting one from NewEgg. Of course the drive FITS in the space provided just fine... and I could always tape it down, or something, lol... but... I DON'T THINK SO... This drive is TIED for my most expensive component, and would ordinarily have BEEN the most expensive component in this build, lol.

Or are there other thoughts? Maybe put it on a piece of foam rubber on the bottom of the case? :eek:
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-21-2009, 03:12 AM

Ok, some deep breaths are needed I think... :/

SSD drives have no moving parts, so you could throw your Intel drive up and down while installing Windows and it wouldn't make a difference.

For the time being, you can just rest it somewhere in your case - just leave it dangling to test for the first boot, and you can always mount it properly when you can get the mounting kit.

JeffAHayes19

06-21-2009, 03:34 PM

Yes, I've been practicing Chong's "mellowwwwwwwwww" exercise all morning -- except I don't have any WEED to go with it, lol (but I was practicing it with my eyes closed and my brain "in neutral," lol).

Yeah, I THOUGHT SSDs were a lot less vulnerable to shock and whatnot due to the "no moving parts" thing, but I was still freaking out over this just a little bit (maybe more than just a little bit). I've had at least ONE MOMENT with every single part in this build where... I maybe touched it and wasn't grounded -- or something -- except for the power supply and the case!

So far all I know, it's ALL FRIED before I ever turn on the power, lol! Practically speaking -- and from past experience, however, I'm probably OK and just wound a little too tight after several long nights of this stuff. I'm getting ready to go to the local Best Buy to see if THEY just MIGHT sell that mounting hardware (yeah, RIGHT), but there's always a snowball's chance in this summer heat! (couldn't find it on their website, but that means NOTHING -- do a search for anything 3.5" on their website and it returns results for Mozart's 35th Symphony, lol!)

I found EXACTLY what I need at NewEgg, for $25 with free shipping -- overnight shipping would be about the same price as the part! If it's really safe to run it for a few days without a decent mount (I CAN use some double-stick tape short-term) I will order it with 3-day shipping and just QUIT OBSESSING (I CAN stop obsessing, yaknow, lol).

You might actually be surprised if you ever meet me in person how QUIET and soft-spoken I can be, lol... unless you get me excited! :eek: Or get me talking about something I'm REALLY INTO (like this stuff, or black holes and cosmology and SuperString Theory and such, lol).

I DO have one other question -- not really related to the build, but to when I'm finished... My membership privileges say I can't "post attachments." I was hoping to post some pictures like Sean did, when I'm finished. I assume those are considered "attachments," however. I figure that's a "privilege" that usually comes at a certain level, like after you've made a certain number of posts, or with request, only, so I'm requesting, just in case, because since you said I'm safe to do what I ALMOST did last night, anyway, Wise Monkey, I'm going to do it tonight, and assuming I DIDN'T actually blow something up along the way, my new system should be up and running sometime tonight or early tomorrow morning.
Jeff

******************
10:17 p.m. -- 6-21-06

Well, I just ordered the 3.5" mounting bracket from NewEgg for $25. While I'm waiting, I'm going to mount the drive with double-stick tape (that stuff's good for everything, ain't it?) :D I'll let y'all know whether I had to use my gas mask or not.
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-22-2009, 02:58 AM

If you upload the photgraphs to a website such as Imageshack or Photobucket, they will give you a link to the photgraph. If you then create a new post and paste the link between two tags, it will display the image.

The problem with uploading attachments is that there is only a finite amount of space available on Rob's server, and any attachments will take up valuable space for informative posts. :D

JeffAHayes19

06-23-2009, 01:12 AM

Thanks, WiseMonkey.

I know how to do that... have done it in other forums... just wasn't quite sure if that was included in the "you may not post attachments" definition.

Although I KNOW you're right about the SSD being safe to operate the way you said, I just don't feel like jury-rigging it for initial boot purposes and then having to re-do it after the mounting hardware gets here... It's on its way, and should be here Wednesday, so I just decided to lay back and wait until then and finish my build then... I see no reason to rush things, considering I won't be able to do very much with this build until there are more drivers available for Windows 7, anyway, and the ONLY reason I went ahead and JUMPED on the purchase early was the combination of factors that the 920 might not be around much longer and particularly the fact that NewEgg had that SSD on sale two weeks ago.

One thing I think NewEgg could do a little better -- as automated as everything is there, I really think they could have a BOT built into their purchasing system when someone is in the process of finalizing an order that figures out when they're buying a drive ordinarily mounted in notebooks and that doesn't come with mounting hardware, for instance, and is obviously being bought with other parts intended for a DESKTOP build, that AUTOMATICALLY tells the customer that before they finalize the purchase and SUGGESTS they also get the mounting hardware. It would save customers problems down the road AND ensure NewEgg gets the sale, as it's always possible I could have found that mount somewhere else.

BOTS of that nature are NOT particularly complicated, I don't think, and certainly a computer sales site as sophisticated as NewEgg should be up to such a challenge, I would think... I was actually DUMB ENOUGH to sit there for a week with the drive with no mount around it and STILL not realize what it was missing until I actually DID try to mount it, and I'm NOT stupid, lol... I can't imagine what SOME FOLKS may end up doing, lol.
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-23-2009, 02:45 AM

Windows 7 drivers are pretty good already - it found all the latest drivers for my stuff through Windows Update, and if you can't find something then the Vista driver should work fine.

The problem with the bot idea is that what defines a "desktop" build? Most of the stuff you bought could work in a notebook, especially with the i7 based stuff due to be released fairly shortly. It might be a good idea for them to suggest it no matter what SSD you are buying, but that might be annoying for people who buy it for their notebook.

JeffAHayes19

06-27-2009, 01:12 AM

OK, finished the build LATE Wednesday night, but I was too tired to risk trying it out, so I got started last night -- which it took me quite a while to get my space for it and everything ready, as I had to move an old computer and set up my new UPS, etc. Soooooo, I hook up an OLD monitor (just in case FIREWORKS are forthcoming -- so I don't blow EVERYTHING up, lol), and NOTHING... well LOTS of lights ON the motherboard, and LOTS of FAST beeps FROM the motherboard, but no video... The fans will run fine, but that's it.

I KNOW I have the two main MB power connections made, and made properly -- one 24-pin connection about mid-way down the board -- will fit only one way; one 8-pin connection on the far corner of the board just past the CPU -- will also fit only one way... As far as I can tell, those are the ONLY power connections that go TO the motherboard FROM the power supply, PERIOD -- all other power connections go to the various peripherals, cards, drives, etc., and/or FROM the motherboard to things like fans, case lights, etc.

I tried MOVING the video card to a different slot, just in case... Then I tried putting in my LAST video card from my current system (an nVidia 7600 GT, which was working just fine when I took it out in December, so I KNOW it works -- when I test-tried booting with NO video card, it wouldn't boot at all) -- I didn't have a monitor hooked up at THIS point, but I got the same thing... LOTS of LIGHTS on the motherboard and a series of many fast beeps when it first boots up -- oh, and a code that looks like 69 on the little video display on the motherboard (of course Gigabyte has NO reference for what any of the codes, other than the beeps, mean, and all it will say about a long series of very short beeps is they mean a "power error"). I re-checked EVERY SINGLE POWER connection, and I can't find any errors, there... That's part of why I took out the Sapphire video card, since it takes TWO PCI-e power connections, but that didn't seem to make a difference.

The lights on the motherboard, according to the manual -- one set mean the memory is heavily loaded or the Northbridge is heavily loaded (same set for both) -- they're not all lit, but many are... The other set indicates how much load the CPU has, with the more lit up, the heavier the load is on the CPU... It looks like ALL of those are lit up. The manual also says that in order to even ENABLE those lights you have to "first enable Dynamic
Energy Saver Advanced," which of course I haven't done, as I haven't even been able to get to ANY screen.

One thing, I'm using an old HP keyboard and mouse, and the HP mouse is a USB mouse. The MB comes with a standard port for a serial mouse, which I don't have on hand. I'd be more than happy to plunk out $10 for a Serial mouse if that would solve the problem, but a few minutes ago I turned it on with JUST a the 7600 video card installed and got the same issue (no keyboard or mouse plugged in)...

Bear in mind I have 7 SATA cables plugged in -- only 3 of them have SATA power plugged into them -- the DVD drive (which WILL open and close) and the two hard drives (those are the only two power connections I haven't checked yet, because I'd have to take the back panel off, but I made CERTAIN they were on good before I closed the back panel). I have ALL the USB and FIREWIRE slots on the MB populated to feed the card reader and/or the front panel, plus the extra HD audio plug in the back for the front panel. Two of the other SATA cables go to the eSATA panel on the back, one goes to the front header and one goes to the card reader, but NONE of those are POWER cables.

I haven't even sent off my rebates yet, because if I send off the rebate for something and then have to RMA it, I can't, but I'm about to run out of time to do either, lol (time limits on BOTH).

TRUST ME, I did NUMEROUS online searches for these codes (specifically looking for the numerical codes) before I posted this. I have no idea if I BROKE something during my build, if something's hooked up wrong, if something came to me broken, if there's a short somewhere, or WHAT!

HEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPP!!!!! WiseMonkey (or anybody else who HAS A FREAKIN' CLUE), Please!!!!!
Jeff

P.S. In case you're wondering about RAM. I had 6 GB in, since I figured 6 was no more of a problem than 2, as the specification was that the 1366 and i7 weren't set up for faster than 1333 with more than 6 GB... At any rate, I took out the extra 4 GB just in case, and it made NO DIFFERENCE in the beep codes or lights when the computer started up (so I put them back in before setting the computer back down, so I wouldn't have loose RAM lying around).

The Wise Monkey

06-27-2009, 03:07 AM

JeffAHayes19

06-27-2009, 02:31 PM

My advice would be to try and boot with just the basics - CPU, 1 stick of RAM, motherboard, video card and that's it. It does mean unplugging everything, but it does help to narrow down the potential problems to just 5 components.

Did you put all the risers between the case and the motheboard so they are not touching at all?

Well, I basically did that, Wisemonkey, except I still had all the SATA cables plugged in, and all the USB and Firewire cables and the one HD audio cable plugged in...

And YES, I used the risers -- AFTER I figured that part out -- the manual for the case looks like it was drawn by some moron! Beautiful case -- TERRIBLE manual! Of course I should have figured that out on my own, but I didn't.

HOWEVER, being what I considered a "finish" item, the LAST thing I went to do was put the cover over the rear panel where all the USB and Firewire and audio and mouse and keyboard ports are... And it turned out THAT was designed to be slid over those components BEFORE the motherboard was installed and thus clamped in from the INSIDE. At that point I figured it was WAY too much work to disassemble everything just for a "finish" item, so I was able to get it to "fit" on the outside of the case... However, it's possible that has left part of the motherboard shorting out on the inside of the case, so to speak...

I'm going to unplug ALL the SATA cables and USB cables and Firewire cables and that one HD audio cable and try booting again, and if I still get that same "power error," I guess the last thing for me to try is to unscrew the MB from the case, slide that cover over that panel, screw it back on and see if THAT makes a difference. I sure HOPE it's that simple. Frankly, if unplugging all those cables solves the problem, I have a bigger problem than if it's the other thing, because THEN I have to figure out exactly WHICH cable is the issue!

I have to tell you, my wrist is getting so used to having two bands around it (watch AND anti-static armband) it won't know what to do when I'm done, lol.
Jeff

On second thought, the FIRST THING I'm going to do is unscrew the motherboard and put that cover plate on the right way. If I'm guessing correctly, the inside of that thing is non-conductive and helps isolate the MB from the case, and without it being where it's supposed to be, the MB is shorting out.

JeffAHayes19

06-27-2009, 04:44 PM

Well, getting that faceplate installed was probably the most DIFFICULT part of this entire build! I had to completely REMOVE the motherboard from the case, and even then it took me about five minutes of fiddling to find the right way to get the face plate to snap into place... Once it FINALLY snapped into place, it was TIGHT, though... Trying to do it with the motherboard still in there was a nightmare... couldn't get it right and the motherboard wouldn't re-screw in because the faceplate was keeping it from sitting where it should.

But NOW I don't think that's the problem... I just went to Corsair's website to do a little Tech Support check... Thought maybe I could find out if my power supply cable is SUPPOSED to look like it does, but NO DICE... My 24-pin cable is MISSING the connector for pin Number 20. It's just NOT THERE... It looks like there are TWO WIRES going into the slot for pin Number 21.

Pin Number 20, according to the MB manual is the -5V pin, and Number 21 is the +5V pin. I have no idea what the -5V pin does, or if it missing is a big deal... but even if it missing isn't, I'm guessing if the wire for it is combined with the one for the +5V pin that IS a big deal, lol.

I'm gonna hook up the BARE MINIMUM one more time and fire it up just to see if I get the beep codes, and if I do, I'm calling NewEgg for an RMA on this power supply, as I'm ALMOST POSITIVE there shouldn't be any empty slots in the power supply main power connector... Of course it would be a MAJOR HELP if some of these companies had more in-depth manuals and stuff for amateur builders and didn't assume everyone who builds a computer is "an expert." I dare say I'll be CLOSE to an expert after one build, though, lol.
Jeff

OK, well, BEFORE calling NewEgg -- BEFORE even hooking everything up again for one more try -- I decided to see what else I could discover... I went back to NewEgg's sales page to see if I could find a picture of that 24-pin plug, and I did: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=17-139-006-08.jpg&Image=17-139-006-12.jpg%2c17-139-006-05.jpg%2c17-139-006-11.jpg%2c17-139-006-06.jpg%2c17-139-006-03.jpg%2c17-139-006-07.jpg%2c17-139-006-08.jpg%2c17-139-006-09.jpg%2c17-139-006-10.jpg%2c17-139-006-04.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Item=N82E16817139006&Depa=0&Description=CORSAIR%20CMPSU-750TX%20750W%20Power%20Supply... and GUESS WHAT??? The very missing pin I'm talking about appears to ALSO be missing in that picture, so perhaps that IS part of the plug's design? Guess I'm gonna hook it all back up (well, just the bare minimum), and try again.

RickyTick

06-27-2009, 05:25 PM

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#atxmain24

JeffAHayes19

06-27-2009, 07:26 PM

Thanks so much, Ricky. Although I had already figured it out on my own after seeing that picture at NewEgg, that article and the MANY nice, full-color photos, really explain things a lot better.

It's a crying shame there's no such explanation forthcoming in any of the motherboard OR power supply manuals!

Right now I'm VERY aggravated with both Gigabyte AND Corsair!
Jeff

JeffAHayes19

06-27-2009, 10:50 PM

I've taken it down to NOTHING plugged in but the barest video card, one stick of RAM, no power for any of the SATA devices and their data cables are also unplugged from the motherboard... Also thinking that just MAYBE it was possible there was a short or something from one of the unused power cords bundled in the bottom of the case, I pulled them ALL out of the case -- NO loose cables in the case -- NO power cables in the case that aren't connected to something that's running.

Soooo, without even bothering to hook up the monitor or keyboard again, because all I care about at this point is the danged thing starting up without the MB lighting up like a Christmas tree and beeping like it's got the hiccups on FF, and every time I try now, as soon as I turn it on it sounds like one of the fans (and I can't tell which one) is chewing something up (but I can't find anything any fan could be chewing up)... sort of a buzzing sound like a fan blades are running AGAINST something, but I've looked for as long as I can BEAR to listen to that distressing sound, and I can't find ANYTHING -- NO wires seem to be touching any fan blades... none of them appear to be bouncing -- unless it's the fan in the front, as I'm doing all this from the back and sides -- but the sound doesn't sound like it's coming from the front, anyway.

I'm about ready to take the CPU cooler off and see if there's not some problem THERE... I was pretty sure I installed the CPU right -- I mean, with the notches on that chip, there's only ONE WAY it will fit into the CPU SLOT -- but I'm not sure I know ANYTHING at this point!
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

06-28-2009, 04:59 AM

OK, it sounds like your PSU could be faulty - it does have a fan, so it might be that making the noise.

JeffAHayes19

06-30-2009, 02:39 AM

I couldn't just GUESS and send the wrong part back for RMA, so I took the whole shebang into the only local store that custom-builds and repairs computers and isn't part of some chain, today, and asked him to do a diagnosis of the various components and determine what's wrong.

He quoted me $80~$100 for the diagnosis. I then asked him if I'd just brought him all the components I'd bought from the beginning and asked him to build it for me, how much he would have charged me for that, and he said if I didn't want any software installed (which I wouldn't since I can do all that, easily), he'd have charged me about $100 -- and THEN I'd have had a real expert doing the build who could have checked things out as hie put it together, lol, so I'd probably have come out about the same cost and if something were defective, I'd get a much earlier RMA.

Of course at this point, I now know enough I could probably do the build over in an hour or less, lol. He said he'd call me tomorrow with the results.

I gave it to him with that old 7600 video card in it, since I have no reason to believe the 2 GB Sapphire card is defective and it wouldn't give me a POST screen with EITHER video card. If I have to do an RMA, depending on the situation I may pay extra for shipping to get the new part to me sooner -- possibly even pay for the new one before they get the old one if I'm assured I'll get that credited back to me when the old one arrives... I want to get this thing FINISHED, lol.
Jeff

JeffAHayes19

06-30-2009, 10:48 PM

After fully testing out all the components, my local PC shop determined there was a bad capacitor on the Motherboard that subsequently blew a couple of transistors. I COULD take the whole thing back and DISASSMBLE it at this point, RMA the motherboard back to NewEgg and wait for a new one, then put the whole thing back together again -- probably wait AT LEAST another week, if not longer...

BUT, since it's cost me in excess of $100 to get the diagnosis that NewEgg shipped me a defective MB to start with, and they said they can replace the capacitor and two transistors for only a few bucks more, then put everything back together, test it, run the system for a while and make sure there are NO OTHER problems, and have it ready for me to take back home by noon or so tomorrow -- another $20 or so... So which route would YOU have taken???

Now, here's the question... even though I now know I can build my own system, EASILY (as getting past the learning curve of doing it the first time is the hard part), if I'd taken all the parts I bought to this place that charged me $100 to diagnose it, they would have built it for $100, AND when the MB was bad, they would have diagnosed THAT immediately, likely fixed it ON THE SPOT for next to nothing, and I'd have come out at about the same price, A LOT faster... And since I have no diagnostic equipment, NOR the need nor money to buy any, if I do this again, that's probably exactly what I'll do, lol... Not because I can't build it, but because I can't diagnose problems.
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

07-01-2009, 03:11 AM

JeffAHayes19

07-01-2009, 04:13 AM

That is, unfortunately, one of the problems with building your own PC - you need to have some technical expertise to be able to diagnose your own problems. The issue we have with trying to answer questions on the forums is that we can't see exactly what is going on to be able to help out!

It is just a shame that this happened on your first major build. Don't be discouraged though. :)

Oh I'm not at all discouraged, WiseMonkey, just a bit exasperated at all the extra time and headaches I've gone through -- and extra $$$ to get it remedied... I'm just saying that knowing what I now do, when I get ready to do this again I may go to One Source Computers here in Spartanburg and ask Ernest what he'd charge me to build the system I'm considering to build myself (after already having priced the combined cost of the components if I buy them myself), and if he's within $100, or so, of that price, I may just let them do it and thus save myself this sort of potentional headache the next time. If he's not close, I may quote him MY cost on parts, ask him if he can match it, and if he won't, how much he'll charge me to build it if I buy the parts myself and bring them to him.

Again, I feel pretty certain that had they been doing the build they would have quickly diagnosed the problem during the build and just "fixed it on the fly," so to speak. As for you not being able to diagnose my (or anyone's) issue in a forum, WiseMonkey, I seriously doubt unless YOU have the diagnostic equipment and expertise a computer technician does if you could have done it in person, either. They quite likely hooked the MB up to some sort of computerized diagnostic machine, and/or an oscilloscope, and/or went part to part with a test meter and checked to see if current passed through them. I could probably do the multimeter thing, except I'd have no idea what to set it on or what results to expect for various parts, and I'm not even sure where my brother's old multimeter is at this point (he was an electronics tech).

One thing about this guy, though... He's pretty conservative -- wasn't even very keen on me using Intelligent Tweaker to UP the voltage and Mhz on the MB for the RAM to 1.65 and 1600 Mhz because he said it COULD shorten the life of the MB... Also said that although he does custom builds of computers for individuals and businesses he doesn't even OFFER SSDs yet because the technology is too new and he's waiting to make sure it's a stable technology and all the bugs are worked out (I told him that I, too, was a bit concerned and thus did a good bit of research before deciding to buy, and WHICH SSD to buy, but he still doesn't seem keen on even the Intel SSDs).

At any rate, thanks much for all your help and attempts to help. I just ordered Vista Ultimate (my first copy of ultimate) OEM with the free upgrade coupon to Windows 7 from NewEgg a couple of hours ago ($15 more than the non-upgrade version, which seems like a great deal to me, since it's like getting Windows 7 for $15, in a sense, or at any rate, it's still less expensive than a full retail version of the Ultimate version will be come Oct. 22). That should be here by Friday, according to NewEgg's estimates, since I added $3 for rush processing. In the meantime, if someone can provide me a link for some of those benchmarking tests we commonly see run on systems, such as WorldBench, and so forth, I'd be very grateful.

Thanks again to everyone for your help and input!
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

07-01-2009, 05:07 AM

Try PCMark Vantage - http://www.futuremark.com/benchmarks/pcmarkvantage/introduction/

You have to pay for it though, and they don't really give you anything apart from a random number. :)

JeffAHayes19

07-05-2009, 05:19 AM

Try PCMark Vantage - http://www.futuremark.com/benchmarks/pcmarkvantage/introduction/

You have to pay for it though, and they don't really give you anything apart from a random number. :)

Actually, they allow you a single test run for free... Of course when I did my initial download, I also did my test run on my existing system because my new system wasn't ready to test yet...

I've spent much of the last few days getting my new system set up and "up to snuff." It's really kind of silly the way Microsoft Update works (I went ahead and ordered Vista Ultimate, since I could pay an extra $15 for the OEM version and get a coupon for a free upgrade to Windows 7 Ultimate in October -- better deal than if I wait for Windows 7 to come out, plus I get to FINALLY have a working copy of Vista Ultimate for a few months)... Anyway, I'll run Microsoft Update, and it'll tell me it's run all available updates, then as soon as it gets finished running them and rebooting, it'll tell me there are more available... Well, I kind of expect that, since there likely WOULD be some that would have to be applied only AFTER the ones originally, sequentially applied to the DISK version of the software that may be several months old. But THEN I'll run it a third time and it'll say there are NO MORE... Well, every time I go to reboot, I run it again, and sometimes it says there are more, others it says no more... But it waited until TONIGHT to tell me it needed to run the SP2 update, even though that's been available for MONTHS and I've been running Updates several times a day for the last couple of days -- go figure!

At any rate, I have so many cables to reconfiigure, and shareware and free apps and whatnot to install on the new system that I've yet to make it my primary system, so it's still sitting off to the side in a sort of "test build" situation... Everthing seems to work GREAT, although I haven't had a chance (or figured out a way) to accurately "benchmark" it, yet (Windows Experience Index gives it a 5.9 accross the board, which is its highest possible score under Vista -- I think it can go beyond that under Windows 7) I've yet to install RC 7100 as a second boot. With the limited space on that SSD, I'll likely do that on the Velociraptor, which is still empty at this point (it wouldn't even show up on the system at first, as it came unformatted and the Vista installation formatted only the drive I named as the boot drive... Took me a bit, but I finally figured out I could format it using Computer Management under Administrative Tools in the Control Panels.

Interestingly, UNTIL I ran the installation software for that Sapphire 2 GB Radeon VaporX 4870 card, although it ran my test monitor just fine (a 17" Samsung Syncmaster 175v), it scored a FLAT 1.0 on the WEI... Installing the Sapphire software brought that score up to 5.9 for both graphics scores!

I'm a bit surprised Windows doesn't boot faster than it does with this SSD, although things like software installation and Windows Update installations are LIGHTNING FAST once they're downloaded or copied from the DVD, compared with this Core 2 Duo E6600. Of course close to half of the time involved in each boot is the actual Motherboard BIOS check process, but it still does "churn" just a bit when loading Windows, although not for nearly as long as the older computer does.

Although my almost-$200 Linksys WRT 350N Gigabit wireless modem does a fine job, it's almost 2 years old now, and it's not 100% compatible with my HP laptop's security features. I'm going to check to see if the Belkin N+ Gigabit router that garnered a Best Buy rating in the latest issue of PC World IS, and if so I may buy it, as I saw it at Wal-Mart a couple days ago for only $80. At that point, I may move my current system upstairs, along with the Linksys modem, and see if I can use one modem to communicate with the other (if not, I may also get a set of the Belking home-wiring Ethernet consoles you plug in to your outlets and plug one in near the modem down here and another near the computer upstairs, so I can network that way.

At any rate, I'm pretty happy with the way things are running so far. I'll upload some pics to Photobucket soon and post them here.

Thanks for all your help, WiseMonkey, et al.
Jeff

JeffAHayes19

07-22-2009, 12:40 AM

No fault to you, RickyTick, for alerting me to NewEgg's one-day sale on that Intel SSD last month, which put me into system-building mode, but NOW I think I know WHY the drives were on special, lol... Well, the "insert links" link isn't working, so I'll just have to cut-and-paste a little blurb from today's online PC World article about Intel's latest news:

"The company today announces its second-generation drive, the Intel X25-M Mainstream SATA Solid-State Drive (SSD). This new 2.5-inch drive, available in the same capacities as before -- 80GB and 160GB -- uses smaller and less expensive 34nm NAND multilevel-cell flash memory, which translates into big cost savings for consumers.

The previous X25-M used 50nm flash circuits. Intel says the new iteration has improved on some aspects of performance, with up to a 25 percent reduction in latency (which translates into greater speed for accessing data); Intel says a standard hard drive's latency spec would be at 4000 microseconds, while the new X25-M carries a rating of just 65 microseconds. The new drive also has faster random-write input/output operations per second (IOPS) compared with the first-generation model: It's up to two-and-half-times as fast for the 160GB model, and two times as fast for the 80GB. Intel says the 80GB model can deliver up to 6600 4KB write IOPS performance, while the 160GB model can achieve 8600 IOPS. The drives also feature a similar boost in random write performance, which Intel says will translate into faster system and application responsiveness.

Notably, Intel rates the life expectancy of these mainstream drives at 1.2 million hours mean time between failures. Only enterprise-class magnetic hard drives are given comparable ratings by hard-drive makers.

The new X25-M models carry significantly lower prices as compared with the previous-generation drives. Now, the X-25M 80GB has a channel price of $225 (compared with $595 a year ago), and the 160GB version has a channel price of $440 (down from $945)."

Note, I paid $289 for my 80 GB drive ON SALE.

Oh well, maybe I'll be able to afford a second, 34 nm 160 GB somewhere down the road, huh? By the way, I've been able to get 12 GB to run at 1600 Mhz OR 1.65 volts but not BOTH, WiseMonkey... I did a little Googling about that and found a tweaker forum where it appears NOBODY else is able to, either, and some folks were ALL bent out of shape about it and talking about RMAs and whatnot. Heck, I just finally went back and told the MB to default to 1.5 volts and 1333 Mhz to keep everything hunky dory. I'm not THAT speed or power hungry -- especially not at the expense of possibly frying my motherboard or RAM or CPU... If, later on, after further research I discover there may be other ways of achieving the faster speed (and proper timings -- MB doesn't want to do the default OCZ timings, either), I may go back and do some tweaking again, but in the process of all this tinkering I FINALLY tinkered myself to my very FIRST bluescreen on this new build, and that was enough for me.

A couple of thoughts...

One, I really HAVEN'T found many ways to task the system and prove the benefits of its faster speed very much yet, so for the most part, most of the time I can't see much speed benefit over my old system -- except a faster boot -- but the period BEFORE Windows starts loading, when BIOS is loading and RAM is being checked is actually longer (for one thing, this build has 12 GB of RAM on it, meaning that much more RAM has to be checked), so although the actual Vista load is A LOT faster, the total boot time isn't all that much faster.

Two, HOWEVER, when I install software that I've downloaded (not from a CD or DVD, which, of course, has to read off a much slower disk), that software is reading from and writing to the same SSD and the installations are STELLAR fast... I downloaded OpenOffice the other day -- close to a 100 MB download. Once I clicked to install it, and got past all the licensing screens, etc. and clicked the final "go" button, it was like 15 seconds to UNPACK the files and install the entire program! Beat that, lol. And I mean, I had some Xcel files on the computer, and immediately afterwards when I opened folders that had them, they showed up with the proper icon indicating they would open with OpenOffice's Xcel equivalent!

Three, and maybe YOU can help me with this, Wisemonkey... I got all this RAM to free the computer up for when I'm doing highly memory-intensive operations. One of those is when you're copying large volumes of files. One such operation I hadn't done in a while was a synch between two 500 GB hard drives that I use for document storage -- one as a primary, one as a backup (Lantean Database 1 and Lantean Database 2, lol). I actually shut the computer down and turned off the power supply and installed those last 6 GB before doing that because I knew I had a good bit of catching up to do, and I figured that would be a time lots of RAM might come in handy, as it could copy huge amounts to RAM and then offload it, yet I ran Performance Monitor during the process, and Windows was STILL using only about 1.5 GB of RAM, with the remaining 10.5 GB "cached."

When I used to be "a Mac person," one nice thing you could do was allocate however much RAM you wanted to to a program, so long as you allocated at least the minimum and didn't exceed what was needed for the system and other resources or programs you wanted to run concurrently. I see NO WAY to do that in Windoze. Do you know of a way, or at least a way I could get Windows to take advantage of all that extra RAM that's just sitting there, "cached?" I have Vista Ultimate on this machine, so there may be administrative features of which I'm unaware... I mean, with this much RAM, there are times I could possibly even establish a small RAM drive for certain things if there's a way to configure that.

If there isn't a way, when WILL Windows use all that extra RAM? What DOES it do with all that "cached" RAM?

By the way, I have pics. I'll get around to posting them eventually... just haven't gotten them downloaded yet.

Thanks again for all your help, everyone... It's really funny the curve you go through on this, because when I first started reading here it seemed like a really scary idea to do this, then by the time I ordered my parts it seemed really doable, then when I was doing it, it was really scary again, until I got it built, when it looked like it was going to be OK... UNTIL it wouldn't boot up, and I was scared to death I'd done something wrong or broken something -- and it cost me $135 to find out I got a faulty motherboard (and get it repaired in the process)... And then I came to the decision that if I had it to do over, I'd probably buy all the parts and then let the folks who checked it out do the build... But NOW -- I must be crazy -- because I feel like I would do it myself again... Having it all behind me, and having installed almost everything twice (trying to figure out what the problem was), it all seems like a piece of cake, now, lol.
Jeff

The Wise Monkey

07-22-2009, 02:45 AM

The first one is always the hardest... :)

Performance wise, there isn't much difference in terms of sequential read/writes with the new Intel drives, but the random writes have been improved by at least 100%. Considering they were really high before, this leads to very quick random write speeds. However, most people say that you can't really tell that much of a difference in general operation. Shame that you managed to buy just at the wrong time, in some ways, but at least you get a very fast drive out of it.

This was always something I suspected was going to happen - you don't really need that much RAM for anything except very intensive server work or if you have a Photoshop image with 100 layers. It just sits there doing nothing, drinking your electricity. I guess running 12GB at 1600MHz is the preserve of server motherboards or others which cost twice as much as yours. :)

For file copying, it might be worth checking out Teracopy, as this allows you to specify available cache along with lots of other cool features:
http://www.codesector.com/teracopy.php
You should bear in mind that no matter how much RAM you allocate, you will always be limited by the hard drives' speed.

Windows 7 apparently will offer better SSD support, so you might find that it boots faster using the RC than Vista does.

JeffAHayes19

07-23-2009, 02:43 AM

Actually, Wiseone, I already have Teracopy, but I didn't know it would allow you to specify available cache... The only thing I was aware of is that it allows you to determine how large of a chunk it shows copying at any given time (perhaps that's the same thing, and I've not used it since I added the extra RAM).

The problem is I was using Microsoft's free Synctoy app, which allows you to syncrhonize or "echo" two drives (the first time I did it this time, I did a Synch, since it had been quite a while -- the one drive had some problems a while back, so I quit using it for a while, and they worked themselves out with periodic Windoze automatic maintenance). After the first time, I switched it to Echo mode, since all file saves go to Lantean Database 1, and then within a few days I run Synctoy and have it "echo" all new files to Lantean Database 2. Since Synctoy checks ALL files on the drive to see which are new or changed and then copies only those that are new or have been modified, there's no way I can do this using Teracopy, and when I did the first actual Synch, it copied quite a few GB of files, which would have GREATLY benefited from using all 12 GB of RAM to read files into and then copy via the USB interface, which is limited to 40 MB/sec. At the end, Synctoy showed my copy had averaged something closer to 8 MB/sec, so I was getting only 20% of the efficiency of the USB databus, and I KNOW those drives can write faster than that. As Vista automatically does a defragmentation weekly, file fragmentation shouldn't have been part of the reason for that, I don't think.

It's things like this that make me raise my eyebrows when people brag about having a 3 Gbps SATA interface, and then they're using regular old 7200 RPM SATA hard drives, because the simple fact of the matter is that unless you have a truly STELLAR hard drive, you're NEVER going to read or write anywhere CLOSE to 3 Gbps, no matter how fast your interface is... Betcha my Intel SSD can do it, though... and quite possibly my WD Velociraptor, too (which is still completely blank, by the way, except for the system files required to format it, lol). It's gonna stay that way until I have something SERIOUS to put on it, too.

By the way, that "Easy Tune" software that comes with the Gigabyte motherboard and which is the ONLY program on the CD (to my knowledge) that loads as a TSR -- and it's one of those TSRs Vista doesn't like, so on every single boot Vista STOPS the boot to ask permission to load the program (grrrrr -- that's my SOLE REAL COMPLAINT with UAC -- the inability to PERMANENTLY STOP UACs on a TSR you want to load on every boot -- at least I haven't found a way!). At any rate, after having already boosted the Mhz and kindasorta tweaking the RAM timings using the boot-screen program Intelligent Tweaker (I think that's what it's called), I wasn't able to also change the voltage, but I was using "Easy Tune," and was able to also create a new "BIOS profile" that included all my RAM settings (although the timings still didn't look "right" to me, because there are A LOT more numbers in there than just 8-8-8-24... So I saved it with the voltage raised to 1.64 (it won't do 1.65 and 1.66 is IN RED, and with whatever timings I had "cobbled together" using Intelligent Tweaker before startup, plus the 1600 Mhz, and every time it booted, it would tell me I needed to REBOOT to finish saving that profile, and also that I needed to do an online update to the latest version of "Easy Tune," but then Easy Tune quit putting its little icon on the bottom of the screen... And finally after telling it to load Easy Tune one time too many, that's when I got the Blue Screen of Death (and when Vista rebooted, it didn't even try to do a Safe reboot, curiously)...

So when I booted up again, I went into the BIOS screen, and loaded DEFAULT settings and told it to go back to all the original defaults, but then when I looked in Intelligent tweaker, it still had the RAM set at 1600, so I manually moved it back to 1333 (mostly because I don't figure that RAM will function properly at 1600 Mhz at 1.5 volts, anyway). I wasn't sure WHAT to do about the timings, as I couldn't remember what they were originally, and whether the defaults had been restored or not, but it seems to be working OK. When I booted back up, I told Vista NOT to load Easy Tune, then I went into Control Panels and looked at possible options for updating it from Programs and Features, but there were none to Update, only Uninstall, modify or repair... Modify and repair didn't seem to do much, and since I have the original disk, and I don't feel like screwing this system up or messing around any more until I'm better grounded, I just went ahead and UNinstalled it.

I know -- too many words for too little info, lol.

So, anybody have any other thoughts on how I can get Vista to make use of more of my RAM when I have a need for it -- like when I'm doing a large-volume file copy or otherwise working with large files? What if I'm playing a DVD or Blu-Ray disk? Be nice to get the entire thing loaded into RAM, so everything accesses and works at split-second level (I haven't moved my BD-writer/reader over from the Dell yet, but I'm sure I will, as I see NO reason to buy another at this point).

Thanks again for everyone's input!
Jeff

JeffAHayes19

08-30-2009, 10:02 PM

Hi folks,

Almost Sept. 1 and system's still running fine with 12 GB of RAM, although I DID default it back to the slower RAM speed -- MOSTLY because of very confusing and conflicting information on how to boost everything up to the default 1600 Mhz speed of the RAM and ESPECIALLY with the RAM timings, since the timings are always listed with 3 numbers, but when you get in the selectable screens to make changes there are 4 numbers for each channel... Just got a BIT too technical for me, so I told the MB to go back to defaults.

One thing that does concern me a little bit is that one of the primary reasons I spent the extra bucks for a SSD boot drive was for FASTER BOOTS, but now they're getting about as slow as they were on my previous primary computer... Of course the actual part that involves the MB takes more than a minute -- which is kind of aggravating (more than 40 seconds just to get through that flash screen that comes up and shows you all the stuff about the MB and boot options, then another 20 secs or so showing what the actual Post results were)... But then it's often several minutes for the actual Windows boot to take place, with Vista Ultimate -- which was originally less than a minute... Of course I've installed a few more boot apps, but not that much -- I have a black screen for close to a minute after the initial Windows Logo. This happens ONLY on a cold boot -- NOT on a reboot.

I was doing cold boots for a few days because it didn't seem to want to go to sleep when I told it to, but now it's going to sleep again just fine. I did a complete sweep with Norton Internet Security, and it didn't find anything, so I don't know... Not really concerned, just going to go back to my standard of putting it to sleep most of the time, rather than shutting down.

I STILL plan to post some pics, eventually. I just still haven't actually gotten around to downloading them, lol. Sometimes I go months before I download pics. Didn't want you folks to think I took all your help and then just abandoned you. I'm NOT like that. I also continue to read posts asking for help, and when and if I think I have anything to offer, I do.

I think it's possible that there's a much larger pre-fetch file with me running 12 GB of RAM (supposed to be a way to turn pre-fetch off in Ultimate, but I haven't figured it out yet). I know it's not really needed with an SSD, so I'd really LOVE to turn it off as it would both speed up boot times AND reduce the overhead on an already small drive.

If anyone has any tips, I'd appreciate them.

One thing I CAN tell you, Windows Help menus are about as much useful as gelding on a stud farm!
Jeff