Newbie from Vermont

[PPagan]

Hi All,
Many thanks for the web site--it has inspired me to do something I never thought I would be able to, build my own.

My use of 3D animation programs is challenging my Sager AMD 64 3700/ATI Radeon 9700 laptop (128, 2GB, 60GB). The program in question is heavy on CPU use, and is able to use multiple cores. Also heavy on the video card.

My two big limitations--Price (of course!) and Power consumption--I live in an all-Solar house, so power consumption needs to be kept as low as possible.

Question on price--clearly if I go with non-retail packages I can save quite a bit. Would I be a fool?

On power consumption--I guess AMD is a better bet than Intel? Any other suggestions on minimizing power consumption while still blazingly fast?

Thanks again
PPagan

[chunkylover53]

I hear AMD rigs can run on hemp...:D Sorry... I can't comment on power consumption in detail, but I'm sure there are plenty of people here that can.

Price limitation is a little vague, so a number would help. Also need to know what you have already (monitor, keyboard, etc.), so when you give your number we know what that number has to get you. It might also be helpful to know the software (ex. Solidworks requires different resources than other 3D programs).

[shyster]

That is our resident 3d expert for you.

My question would be, are you doing 3d work for fun or for a job? Personal or business use would define how much you should spend, even if it is slightly over you budget as for a job you would probably be able to make it up with better efficiency, and time saving, on running animation passes.

I do not know too much about amd and intels, but as I understand it the 45nm core technology is supposed to use a lower current so they are probably more effecient than AMD. That being said you will probably not be able to find one and if you do they will probably be expensive. You are in vermont though and I believe they have microcenters there correct? If they do you might be able to find one in store for somewhat cheap.

Of course all that was talking about the e8400 which you probably do not want as it is only a duo core, and your stuff supports multi (x4) cores. In that case time becomes an issue, do you wait for the new 45nm quads Q9450 or do you just get a 65nm current quad Q6600. If you go for the second option then possibly AMD's quads might win out on efficiency, however then you are stuck with an AMD motherboard, and most people suggest they are not looking good for the future.

Other than that to chew over, we would really need to know your "budget" to make any tangible suggestions as Chunky mentioned.

[PPagan]

Thanks for the quick responses guys (&/or gals)!

I already have keyboard, mouse, monitor (with my laptop I have a dual monitor setup which i love, but a second stand-alone monitor can wait).

The 3D work is more for fun than profit, but hopefully will lead to some instructional DVDs which would benefit my business. Cutting down the amount of time I need to sit in front of the computer is a major aim.

I am using FormZ, Cinema 4D, and Poser 7. It is the latter which I know can use 4 cores for rendering, but also uses OpenGL for previews; I know it likes lots of RAM too. I also have Solidworks but have not started using it yet.

I didn't know that AMD motherboards may not have a future--please tell me more. (As far as AMD running on hemp--I can do that too!) Also--what are microcenters? We may have hemp in Vermont, but I'm not so sure about microcenters.

As to budget--this is in flux until I know what Uncle Sam wants of me this year. If I could come in under $1000 that would be great, but don't throw up your hands in despair. Maybe I'll win the Lotto :D

Thanks again,
PPagan

[RickyTick]

A very nice system for under $1k is very doable since you don't need a monitor.

[Barrister73]

Am I the only one who wants to know more about this all-solar house?

MRR

[PPagan]

OK Barrister, check my pics out on Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15273396@N03/

We use a wood stove for heat at the moment, and propane for hot water, but by next winter we should have solar hot water. We'll still need wood, but we've got 22 acres of it.

PPagan

[shyster]

Freaky <-- The house I mean. But still neat. There is a house with a similar design on a hill around where I live, but I believe it is a wind powered house. It was around years before solar became a practically usable thing.

As for your internet, do you use a cell phone card, satelite, or do you actually have a land line that you can use?

Getting back to your questions though, AMD's new processors the Phenom series which would likely be the ones worth looking into if you were going with AMD. While they have good stats on paper, they are still using the 65nm technology. Which means technology wise they are a generation behind intels new 45nm series, the E8xxx and the Q9xxx. So it is not the AMD motherboards that are bad, rather that AMD is just behind the times technology wise.

This link is a comparison of AMDs new Phenom versus intels old quad cores:

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_15331_15332%5E15346,00.html

There is a noticable difference, but not substancial and if you think about it in terms of those being the quads of a past generation then AMD is really looking bad.

So in total AMD's quads are better because the Q9xxx series is not yet out in america, and the price gouging on the intels will make them more expensive than MSRP. However if you can wait for intels new cores, or even if you cannot, but have hopes of upgrading in the future then having an Intel board would be to your benefit.

As a final note, I know as you mentioned that poser7 can use multi (x4) cores, but I am not sure on the other programs. If you know they can for sure then quad would definately be the way to go. If only poser can use four I would consider getting an E8400 if you can find one.

Microcenters are physical stores, but I believe they are mostly located on the east coast. You could find them on a google search I am sure.

Short part list:

Motherboard: Abit IP35 or Gigabyte ds3r ($150-170)
CPU: Q6600 or if you can wait Q9450 ($260-350)
GPU: EVGA 8800gt 512 ($200)
RAM: Corsair XMS2 2gb ram ($40)
Optical drive: ($20-30)
Hard Drive: personal choice ($140-170)
Case: again personal choice, look at thermaltake and Antec for ideas ($30-100)
PSU: Corsair 520HX (89.99)

This is just a generic list to get you started, it is a little over your $1000 budget, others can make better suggestions. Aside from the PSU I did not look up any prices most are just from memory, so they could be higher or lower slightly. Just remember to shop around once you have an idea of what you want.

[RickyTick]

If you need to trim a few dollars off what Shyster just listed, you might consider this case/psu combo.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129024

Also, the performace of the 9600GT is only 12% on average below the 8800GT and can be bought for $180.

It's been reported that the Q6600 will drop to around $230 in April if you can wait.

[shyster]

Yeah that is also a good suggestion Ricky, I have just heard that the Sonata III's power supply is sometimes bad. Can you confirm or deny that from any personal experience? I know there was someone else on this board who switched out there III's case for the 520HX because they were having problems. I think it was Chunky...

That is also true I forgot about the 9600's because they suck as gaming GPU's (suck of course being relative especially versus the GT type series), but since this is more of a video and 3d rendering GPU they might not be that bad.

I had not heard that about the quads, but you would think they would drop in price once the Q9xxx's come out. By the way have you heard anything about a new American release date for them?

[RickyTick]

IDK. I guess every power supply is "sometimes bad". 90% of the reviewers on newegg gave this combo either 4 or 5 eggs.

Here's the quote from Techreport,
"Our recommended Antec Sonata III delivers everything we need for this system: a beefy 500W power supply with an 80% efficiency rating, a clean layout...".

Here's the info on the Q6600 price reduction.
http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5698&Itemid=1

I know its Fudzilla, but sometimes they get it right.

[PPagan]

Thanks for all the great info guys.

How about the power consumption issue? Is this mainly a question of the CPU? I've noticed that the AMD CPUs seem to list their wattage, whereas i don't see the same info on Intel chips; and I know that for laptops AMD has low power consumption products.

As to phone: no cell reseption where I am! Luckily there is a local company which has set up a wireless ethernet network, so I get good broadband, and we use VOIP (Vonage). That was a real concern for a while as it would cost us at least $1600 to bring in poles!

[chunkylover53]

This is the post you might be recalling on the Sonata III discussion. I never used it, but Jamie has some history.

http://forums.mysuperpc.com/showthread.php?t=1185&page=2&highlight=sonata

[PPagan]

Also--will it be fairly easy to upgrade CPUs? I would like to set myself up with an eay upgrade path, at least until the have the new Teraflop Quantum computers that plug directly intop your brain stem.

[shyster]

Wow really?

A green, off the grid guy wants a computer mounted into his head?

As for upgrading a CPU yeah it is easy, as long as your motherboard supports the new CPU. Basically all you need to do is pull out the current CPU, take the thermal paste off of all the components involved and then apply new paste to the new CPU.

As I understand it Quantum computers run on a nuclear core, am I incorrect in thinking that?

[PPagan]

Power is not a problem with the Quantum Teraflop, as it taps directly into the Zero-Point energy of the universe. Cooling is the issue; for this reason, it is best constructed in outer space. For home use a liquid helium bath is sugested. This is vital as excess heating of a QC can cause tears in the fabric of space-time...(someone stop me!)

Q6600 is looking good to me; I am reading that people are not greatly enthusiastic about the first offerings of 45nm quads. What would be a good choice of MBoard that would support future 45nm quads, while allowing me to start with a Q6600?

Thanks again for the great help.
PP

[RickyTick]

The P35 motherboards will provide an upgrade path to the new 45nm processors. I'm partial to the Abit IP35 Pro, but Gigabyte and Asus are just as good or better.

[shyster]

I disagree, at least about Asus.

It is possible that their high end boards are still good, but their midrange boards are junk. And since you want to build within a budget to some extent or another you want a midrange board I would think.

I hear the Gigabyte is good, that is the preference of WiseMonkey, and I just got the Abit IP35 pro that Ricky recommended and it has not given me any problems at all. Other than my own stupidity anyways.

As for Asus I had to return two of the P5kc's because they were DOA or at least apparent DOA since they would not POST. Also a board that says it supports the new 45nm chips needing a flash before it can even POST is just stupid. It is totally possible that you would not have any problems with getting an Asus board to POST if you use one of the older 1000MHz CPU's instead of the 1333MHz CPU's. But more than likely you would have to flash the computer if you wanted to upgrade to one of the new CPU's at some point.

[PPagan]

So...it looks like the Q6600 and the Abit will be a good choice.

I still have that question about power. Is the main factor in power consumption the CPU? If I'm sure about that, I can no doubt dig up the requisite figures.

PP

[Oatmealman15]

Quick question, Shyster where is it that you found the 520hx for $89.99?

[shyster]

Well you take the good with the bad, I believe that the CPU is one of the main power eaters, followed by or possibly preceded by the GPU depending on how high end it is, and in third place would probably be the ram.

But yeah I think a quad core definately eats more power than a duo and as I understand it the 65nm cores eat more power than the 45nm cores. That being said I do not know how AMD's phenoms compare to intels Q6600 series in terms of power consumption. If you do decide to look at both of them please post your results, I am always looking to learn new things.

By the way how much power does your house produce? You said you do not rely on the power companies at all, because you are off the grid it seems. However are you even hooked up to any grid at all if you needed extra power, or if it is offered in your area can you sell back excess power supply? I do not know how it works in other states but in california, especially because of the power crisis PG&E has to accept and pay for I think it is up to 10% of your excess power if you are running a solar or any other kind of "green" system.

So how far is town? For things like shopping do you hit Costco once a month and just massively stockpile, or can you drive to the supermarket within a reasonable amount of time? Or do you say screw all that I am totally off the grid and catch the deer in your backyard, and fish in your stream? I know you are not totally off the grid as you said you are hooked into wi-fi and that still belies living within the grid. Your way of life just seems totally interesting at least from my point of view.

Here is the power supply for that price after MIR:

http://www.buy.com/prod/corsair-520w-sli-certified-modular-atx-power-supply/q/loc/101/203270716.html

It is always good to shop around, try google shopping, and other such places. I do not think I am allowed to list them as one post I made about them got deleted.

[PPagan]

Thanks Shyster, that's helpful info.

Coming back to the Intel vs AMD motherboard issue: I understand that AMD seems to be lagging behind Intel in terms of the latest and fastest; but is that really that significant to me in terms of long-term upgrade prospects? I really don't need the ultimate in speed ASAP! After this current project I wouldn't anticipate upgrading for acouple or 3 years anyway, so will it really matter that the AMD cpus available will be a bit slower that the Intel?

As to my house power: unfortunately we have no access to the grid at all. To bring in power poles would cost me at least $1600. (If we were connected, we would indeed be able to sell power back--that's an ideal situation).
So of course the situation is very different depending on weather and season. In full sun, our solar collectors generate 800W. At this point i don't have good figures on exactly how much power we've used over the past few months; but we've become very conscious of how much each appliance draws! Over the winter, we have used our small 1 KW generator quite a bit. So we're not truly indepensent yet. The refrigerator is the biggest draw, as it is on a lot; so a plan for next year is to build an "ice-box": an insulated box with fans and temperature sensors so that, when the average night-time outside temperature is below 37 deg (at least half the year) that cold air will keep the box cool. Crazy to spend power cooling a box when it's already cold outside!

We're also going to replace all our compact fluourescents with LEDs.

We're careful to turn off stereo etc at a powerstrip rather than leave a virtual load, and even to turn off the wireless router and antenna when we're not at home. Very interesting how one comes to see power as a limited resource (as it really is) as oppposed to something in mysterious infinite supply!

In the longer run we may be able to supplement the solar electric with wind or hydro; and/or we may get more panels & batteries.

So with all this you can understand why i'm concerned about power consumption! I'll keep my laptop anyway, which doesn't draw much more than 100W, and use it for browsing, word processing, etc, and reserve my Quantum Teraflop for solving the Schroeder equations of the universe and other processor-intensive jobs.

As you've seen the pics of my house: the main living quarters is the Yurt, which is an inexpensive and quick but temporary solution. The rest of the building, which will surround thew Yurt, will be of Ferrocement, a thin-shell cement method; the arches in the pics are of FC. Very sculptural, very strong. The building will be earth-sheltered; eventually all you will see is the windows and doors poking out of what will look like the side of the hill!

Ther is a local store about 10 minutes drive away, and town (White River Junction) is about 40 minutes; that's where my office is. We shop once a week, but I'm at my office regularly, so we're really not cut off. One of the great things about Vermont, and our location in particular, is that we can be well out of the way but still close.

Deer in the backyard is a definite possibility, but I haven't hunted yet. A garden, orchard, Permaculture set-up, greenhouse, and chicken coop are all in the planning stages.

You do know that we are heading for a MAJOR socio-economic crisis, don't you?

Come visit if you're ever in the area!
All the best

Peter

[shyster]

Wow, okay I will just start with what I know about and work downward toward the stuff I have no clue about.

Regarding the Intel versus AMD thing there are two big questions:

Do you want to upgrade in the future?

Or

Do you want to just build something new with newer technology?

If you want to upgrade in the future from what you are building now to something better, then AMD may not be the way to go. This is all speculation of course, but with the considerable technology lead Intel seems to have over AMD it is more a question of will AMD be around in three years.

--Start Economic Rant--

As you mentioned mentioned, possibly in jest possibly not, we are heading towards a socio-economic crisis. If you take a look around you can see some big businesses going down, major takeovers going on, and a considerable consolidation of large companies.

All of this plus the current interest rates and market fluctuations, as well as the housing problems (the numerous defaulting on housing loans, as well as the over abundance of houses in the market). All these things point to a possible depression.

If such a thing should come to pass a company that has weaker technology will surely have hard times surviving through a prolonged depression. People are less willing to support an underdog when they can barly feed themselves.

--End Economic Rank--

Getting back to the point though if you plan to build a new computer three years from now, then get the computer that best fits your needs. The reason Intel is suggested most often is because they are strongest and will survive the longest as well as having higher end technology. Also because many people especially gamers like to upgrade their computers more often than the coming of the Lunar Eclipse (roughly two years between each total eclispe).

If you however plan to build an entirely new computer in three years which you might want to do, without scrapping old parts, you should get the parts that best fit you in the now rather than parts that might fit you in the later.

As I mentioned I am not all that familiar with the power usage of the two types of cores, Intel or AMD, so I cannot suggest which to choose on that, rather just look at their homepages and they will probably tell you that information.

Now onto the things "I" have questions about. The icebox, would it be placed inside a room in the house or would it be placed remotely outside? Just wondering because you mentioned that you plan to have the house earth-sheltered. Does that mean you would have to build a special "window" or something for the intake fan that would be allowing the ambiant temperature to come in if it was inside? If that is the case what would you use to prevent that temperature from getting into the rest of the house and freezing you also? Would generic insulation work or would it have to be something special?

Are compact fluourescents shaped like normal light bulbs or are they the long thin bar lights that are usually in offices? If they are replacements for lightbulbs that are more efficient than fluourescents do you have a link to them so that I could look into them also? Luminescence wise how do they compare to traditional bulbs or fluourescents?

I did not notice before, but your solar panels are remotely placed correct? As in they are not ceiling mounted as they would be here in California. Can I ask how many of them you have and how much they cost, both in purchase price and in setting them up? Did you hire a contractor or some kind of solar specialist to survey your land before hand so that you knew where to build your house? Or do you just know about all of this stuff and installed and set them up yourself?

The yurt is currently covered in some kind of think canvas correct? Not any kind of wood or sheetrock? Are you planning to have the FC cover the house like you would mortor the sheetrock around a house or are you planning to build a dome from the ground up leading to where the base of the roof of the yurt starts? By earth-sheltered do you just mean after putting all the FC on you will just pack dirt over the FC or it is something more involved?

That is good you have a close store. How do you handle winters there, I saw you already survived your first one. What I mean is how heavy is the snowfall, is it light enough that even in the thick of winter you can drive your car through it, or does it get so thick you have to "shovel" it (of course shovel means to include snow plows and other such devices).

Can I also ask, if you were willing to answer my first price question, how much the house from ground up cost altogether up to this point? Including any leveling or reinforcing of the ground that might have had to have been done.

If you will not answer that question, or even if you did how much was done by you and how much was contracted out? Meaning did you put in each nail by yourself, did you draw blueprints, etc.

Your house while not very big, as least as far as I can tell from the pictures seems totally awesome and I am very interested in it, both from a green standpoint and a living off the grid standpoint.

Thanks for whatever reponses you give.

[PPagan]

Hi Shyster,
OK, I’ll do my best!
Good informative points on the AMD vs Intel debate. I am thinking at this point that I will upgrade rather than build a whole new computer. And another factor in favor of Intel is this—I found on X-bit
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/intel-wolfdale_11.html
a detailed comparison of the E-series dual cores with the Athlon 64, including power consumption, verifying that the 45nm has a HUGE advantage over the 65nm technology. Idling, the e8500 draws 3.4W, while the Athlon draws 29W; at full power, the E8500 draws 33.4W, and the Athlon 114.6W! As they say in Monty Python, “Say no more, say no more!” I think I will go with the E8400, with the idea that in a year or 2 I might move up to one of the (by then) not quite so new Intel Quads.

As to the icebox: it would go in the mudroom (every house in Vermont has a mudroom, sort of like the airlock in a space station), which is usually at a temperature about half-way between outside and inside. Both it and the air intake tube would be heavily insulated—no special kind, but plenty of it. Build a box around the tube and fill with a foot of fiberglass or perlite. The icebox would actually be right up against an exterior wall so this won’t be hard, but it wouldn’t really be much of a problem to bring the air in some distance.

Compact fluorescents are now available shaped like regular lightbulbs; they involve a thin tube coiled up into a spherical space. They have built-in ballasts to eliminate flickering and slow start-up, and come in several color degrees. Much more attractive than ordinary office fluorescent tubes. Use 1/5 the energy of an incandescent bulb, and the price keeps coming down. One down side: they contain mercury vapor, so you really don’t want to break them.
LEDs are even more efficient, and are intrinsically directional; by now the price of these has dropped to the point that they can be used for space lighting, though they are best for task lighting. They use very little power indeed—I think they are the wave of the future for lighting.

Yes the solar panels are placed about 50 feet from the power panels in the basement, on a steel mounting frame. There are 8 panels (made by Shell!). I have a friend who used to have a solar design business; he very generously did all the purchasing and the electrical wiring at cost. I ended up paying about $8000 for the whole set-up, which included quite a bit of electronics: inverter, charge controller, etc. I was very lucky. I did pour the concrete for the post myself.

When I first was deciding whether to buy this bit of land, it seemed that finding a house site was a problem, it being so steep. I remember one August, when I had just found one could access the land from the back (North) side, I was bushwhacking through the dense undergrowth of brambles and small trees, trying to get a sense of whether there was a house site. I kept getting a sense from the shape of the land that maybe, just around the next ridge…. Finally I came to an area that felt right, a sense of, this is it! And that indeed is where we are now, though of course it looks completely different. So, no surveyor or contractor involved. But I did know what was needed in terms of a solar site, and the whole hillside faces just West of South, so I knew it would be a good site. Once the site was cleared of trees and the exact location of the house became clear, my friend came over with a device to read the exact location of the sun at different seasons, and we then chose the exact location of the solar installation.

The Yurt has a heavy-duty vinyl roof, and strong polyester walls. I will probably eventually build an FC structure much the same shape as the Yurt, but a bit bigger, except that the roof will be domed rather than conical. But the first extensions of the current space will be around the Yurt, spreading out to the West, with a roof height about 3 ft higher than the present floor of the Yurt. The basic construction method will be to construct two FC shells about 1 foot apart, and fill the space with a lightweight foamed cement with polystyrene beads. The outermost layer of FC will have special additives to waterproof, probably plastic sheeting on top of that, then drainage stone to give water somewhere to flow to, geo-fabric on top of that to prevent earth clogging the drainage, and then maybe 1 foot of earth to grow grass or small bushes, and of course this will be covered with snow in the winter. So of course I have to be sure it is strong enough; but the combo of FC and dome/arch shapes is amazingly strong for very little material. Do you see how the arches I show in the pics have a sort of lip? This catches rain and snow and diverts them; something similar would hold back the earth. With a draping bush planted along the rim, it would look like an opening into the earth!

Winters here are something to deal with , though with global warming they have gotten a lot milder. Still 20 below is not uncommon, and plenty of snow, so that even with 4-wheel drive (which many people around here have), one needs to plow (and shovel where one cannot plow). This winter has been record-breakingly snowy; it seems like I’ve been doing little else than shovel. We’ve been hiring someone to plow our ¼ mile driveway, but now that I finally have my tractor back from the shop (a 45hp Ford with a front-loader and a backhoe, invaluable to me), I will plow our own driveway with it. The Town takes care of the town roads. But this winter so far we must have had a cumulative amount of over 6-8 feet. There’s probably 3 feet out there now; with time and sun and sometimes rain the snow packs, evaporates, or melts enough so we’re not totally buried.

I don’t have an answer for you on total cost, though I’d be happy to tell you if I knew. The Yurt kit itself cost $15000. I and some friends put it up over a couple of long hard weekends.
The biggest cost so far was the initial land clearing and the putting in of the ¼ mile driveway. This we had no choice but to contract out, and it cost maybe $30.000, perhaps more. EVERYTHING else, I did myself! I spent several years researching and learning about Ferro-cement, largely through an excellent online email list (ferrocement.net). Anything I didn’t know, I bought a book on, then trekked down to Home Depot. I moved earth to make terraces out of the sheer hillside, cleared the earth down to bedrock at the house site, anchored the foundations to the rock, made the forms, mixed and poured the concrete (in a 5-gal bucket!); put in a reed-bed greywater system and a composting toilet; did all the plumbing; built the whole damn thing! It’s been a HUGE amount of work, but very satisfying; and of course I am mortgage-free!
Now I’m smart and fairly handy, but not very strong or athletic by nature, and knew nothing about construction. Also, I’m somewhat of a loner, not terribly social, so I didn’t have other people to help much. Which was fine with me; but what I’m trying to say is that if several like-minded people worked together on such a project it would be a lot quicker and easier (it’s taken me 5 yrs so far). The FC construction method is truly awesome, and really not so hard. If I had just had one gorilla to haul cement buckets, my job would have been 3 times easier. Of course, I would have had to pay the gorilla, and we can’t grow bananas up here).

I’m obviously gratified by your interest, and am happy to share any more info you want.
All the best,
Peter.

PS: I hope no-one is annoyed by this long off-topic message? Please let me know if it’s not appropriate here.

[Barrister73]

Probably not appropriate for this site; but those who do not wish to read it can easily skip this topic. I, for one, love this stuff.

I have no idea why you would ever consider a desktop over a laptop if you are concerned with power consumption, but I concede that you are more of an expert in your needs and power in general, so I will just smile, nod, and pretend I have a clue what is going on.

One (baseless) thought I have is that cooling your computer would be a large amount of your consumption. Given your location; would having computer at an exterior wall with a duct so you can draw outside air with fewer fans help in the slightest? Or perhaps liquid cooling?

As long as I have your ear (eye), Any good LED replacements for incandescents strong enough for full room lighting yet?

MRR

[PPagan]

Hi Barrister,
My main reason was cost--I can't at this [point afford to buy a laptop fast enough, and i can't build myself one.

The cooling ideas are good, I had been playing with similar thoughts. I have read conflicting things about water cooling, can you give me your take?

As to LEDs--probably not yet, in terms of price. But close. If you buy the bulbs yourself and assemble them with the appropriate resistors, oit is a lot cheaper. You could easily put a string of LEDs around the top of the wall and have a beautiful lighted ceiling. LEDs come in a wide variety of single-wavelength colors, as well as soft white and cool white. check out these site:
http://www.oksolar.com/led/do-it-yourself.htm
http://www.superbrightleds.com/led_prods.htm

All the best,
Peter

[Barrister73]

The cooling ideas are good, I had been playing with similar thoughts. I have read conflicting things about water cooling, can you give me your take?



I know nothing about water cooling and probably won't until I need to start playing with overclocking. It simply strikes me as beeing more energy efficient. At best, I would repeat what others have said.

Basically, I just shout out ideas without any knowledge of the likelihood of success. Like New Coke.

MRR